298 - What Learning Looks Like In Podcasting

0:04 Good morning podcasting morning Chat. Today is Tuesday, May 6th, 2025, May the 6th be with you. Today we're asking our PMC community how podcasts help them learn and the best ways podcasts get teachable. What do we know that works, and what have we learned that really stuck with us after hearing a show? As always, a big welcome to our Live Crew in Clubhouse this morning. And if you're catching this on the replay, welcome to you too. Stick around and give us 30 seconds and then we'll get started. Here we go. Good morning, everybody.

1:21 Welcome to what is probably an unfamiliar voice as you'd expect for the coming weeks with Mark being away. But I am Matthew Bliss, a regular upstage Comer goer. I don't know, running out of words. Alex Balish, help me out. No. Problem. I was just going to see how far you were going to, you know, go there. Yeah, Just welcome everybody. We've got Ashley, we've got Dan, we've got Dr. Sid. Nick and Amanda is here with Mark in the downstairs lounge. Before we get into our our main topic, I want to thank Dan for first making sure that the song and everything worked out well along with Ashley.

2:04 I know Dr. has been doing a lot of work and it's good to be the second group that's going because we got all the bugs worked out because Sid did such a great job yesterday on his feet. It was like hot potato trying to figure out what the heck we were doing. The first thing I wanted to talk about, and I know the the room people are still kind of filing in and if you guys want to share this with anybody on Clubhouse or however you listen to it, Why do you why did you start your podcast? What was the reason? Was it because you wanted a really cool snowball Mike? Was it because you had some passion for some topic that you really had to get out?

2:46 And you know, Ashley, what was like? What was one of the reasons why you started your podcast? Good morning. Thanks, Alex. One of the reasons I started my podcast was to help the local people of Panama City, Panama City Beach process that they had been through a natural disaster. It's not something you go through every day and I just wanted to offer some hope for the community so they could go on my podcast and talk about what they've been through and how they had grown since the storm. So you have that answer and then you have, you know, Amanda, why did you guys start? Why did you and Chris start? Oh, well, an app called Fireside came along and we needed something to do to get approved to be a member over there. So I made Chris do it with me.

3:36 And you know, five seasons later, we're still having fun. It gave me an A necessity and then turned into something really great and fun. Exactly. I mean, how many? You have over 100,000 downloads, right? Audio downloads, yes, OK. You know, and then there's Dr. Why did you start? Wait, did we start a podcast yet? You are a dirty dog. I so am I. Dirty, dirty dog. I'm just making sure. I just wanted to make sure 'cause I know Mark was, was trying to be accountable. But the reason I say that is it, it kind of comes back to our, our our topic for today, you know, and I'm going to let Matt get into it a little bit more.

4:16 What do we really learn from a podcast? And I think before we started, you know, did you listen to the radio and what podcasts are are really that you love listening to? And Dan, what did you have to say? Man? Yes, thank you. Good morning. I wanted to add to this initial question. I had to think about it initially when you asked it, to be honest, but I used to host live fireside chats for an organization called Startup Grind. It was a global community for startup entrepreneurs throughout the world. And I loved sitting down and having those conversations with business leaders, entrepreneurs, investors. And that was missing from my world when I moved to a new location.

5:05 And yeah, so I decided to start my podcast so that I could continue that journey of having those conversations with people. And that's awesome. I mean it, you know, everybody has their story and I know Matt and Dr. because you work with a lot of different clients, you know, they'll come to you and they'll be like, I want to start this podcast. And Matt, I, I know you have like a whole list of things that you tell your clients, but it, you know what, what podcasts do you like listening to that you think that that people can learn from? Thanks, Alex. The overall idea of the topic today was going to be learning in general from podcasts. So learning how to do podcasts themselves is an interesting one because you can almost learn from best practices of any podcast really.

6:00 It's a bit hard to see behind the scenes of production and what's going on to get the podcast out there for people, but I find that a lot of the learning that I get, both for my business and clients and for myself, is listening to the ones that I hear something different in or hear something unusual in. DI you have you got something that you'd like to share in terms of? Teaching through when? Yeah. When Alex asked the question, I immediately thought of my mentors, which is Alan Shively. He has a podcast called Podcasting Business School. I never missed that one. Dave Jackson ask podcast coach every Saturday on YouTube and his other podcast, you know, and David Hooper, the big bot, the big podcast.

6:51 Those are my 3:00 that I never, ever miss. But aside from that, when people learn that I am a podcast producer, their first question is, well, what's a podcast producer do? Because you know, anyone can do a podcast, anyone can do a podcast. It's following up with that second podcast and the third podcast and so on and so forth that and make it successful. That's the hard part. And so I usually tell people, well, I you know, what you can do is you can do it all by yourself by watching a ton of YouTube videos.

7:32 And then that course, the, let's say you were going to build a home, you can watch a ton of YouTube videos on, you know, the materials that you'll need, permits that you'll need, plumbing, electrical, all the stuff that involves in building a home. Or you can hire a contractor who is an expert in their field, has been through all of that and has learned from mistakes that you don't have to make. So that's how I kind of explained to people, you know what I do? It's a great way to do it. I think learning by doing is one of those things in podcasting that gets talked about a lot, but it very much is the truth.

8:13 Like you kind of, you have to practice it. You have to take the things that you see and actually make them happen, which you can't do necessarily with a house because you know, you might need the plumbing. And you can watch plenty of YouTube videos about how to build electrical into a wall. But unless you're an electrician, it becomes incredibly difficult. But I want to expand the scope of the conversation a little bit and distill that essence down into what learning, how learning happens from podcasts and when it happens effectively. Because us as podcasters, when we're trying to learn from other podcasters, we kind of know what we're looking for. Like how many albums did they leave in or how many did they take out or what was the quality of the production that went through that. And have a quick peek at their YouTube video version and see what equipment they're using.

9:04 But for learning in general, podcasts share a very unique kind of space where you can engage with a podcast to be entertained, or you can do it to learn something very specifically from it. I know that the Mel Robbins podcast features quite heavily, and Mel Robbins herself features quite heavily on this show with Mark's inspiration and the rest of you that enjoy her work too. But there's a little bit of background for me. I in a previous life, I was IT support in a school for about 7 or 8 years and then I got my secondary teaching degree. So when you do something like that and you learn how to teach children, it's very hard not to see the signs of what people are trying to do and not trying to do and sometimes fail terribly with trying to create learning opportunities on their show. And I can see Ashley's also charming in there used to be a teacher as well, very common among musicians, I think. So the having a teaching background and seeing how learning happens in the classroom and seeing how people do that in podcasts particularly can be really interesting. So I, I was wondering if anyone on the stage now had any ideas of podcasts they've listened to where they've learned something that they've then been able to action later. It doesn't necessarily just have to be about podcasting itself. Could be any kind of task, any kind of skill that you might want to learn, AI, for example.

10:36 But the goal here, I'm hoping, is that anyone who is listening to this, who does have a podcast, focus on teaching people things that we can distill that essence down so that they can learn how to successfully do it for their own show. And just very quickly as an example, a couple of examples for myself that I've gathered over the years, I'm a big fan of Manoush Zamorodi. He used to work with The New York Times and now works with NPR. Actually. She's had a couple of podcasts called Note to Self, and then a more recent one called Body Electric. And both of those are focused on the way our brains work, our engagement with social media, and how to get the most from our activity, not just from a physiological perspective, but also from a neurological perspective.

11:27 And she's cast an extremely wide net across maybe 8 years of her podcasting career that you wouldn't get unless you followed her directly. But she actions research, she's got a journalistic background. So the shows that she creates are incredibly well structured. They tend to be very well supported, but she has that learning and that provision in mind of making sure that people can take what she needs them to from the episodes that they listen to, regardless of their engagement. Now we've got a couple of people who want to jump in. So Ashley, I think you were in there first. What would you like to share? Yeah, thank you. We were talking about learning and I think the podcast that I've learned.

12:10 From the most have been the ones that are very story driven. In fact, while being a teacher, I remember being at a workshop and they were teaching us teachers all about storytelling. And the idea that they were trying to transmit is that students learn best through storytelling. And what are those podcasts that have has taught me so much about life and how to tell a good story? Is This American Life? Not only for its content, but they know how to split up a story into acts. They know how to capture it at different angles. They use excellent sound design. And all of those things are things that I've taken as inspiration for my own podcast.

12:54 That's great. And what do you think, Ashley, would be one of the things that you've mentioned that really helps the learning as part of that, if you could distill it down to anything? I would say how they really humanize everyone. You really, when you listen to This American Life, you still realize that these are real humans. This isn't a reality show, this is more of a documentary. So I would say what I really learned is how to really tell human stories in an honest way. But at the same time, folks really can feel for them with those things like sound design and putting those acts into place. So it's the authenticity and the connection that really cements the learning there.

13:38 That's really great. Sid, I think you were Next up and then we'll jump over to Alex. Sid. Morning everybody. I'm always learning, most listening to learn reading to learn, I guess you'd call me an active learner. And then I always try to implement as much as I possibly can that is relevant to my journey, where I am on my journey. And one of my favorite podcasts to listen to are podcasts around leadership because each and every one of us is the leader, whether you have a team of people or not. So I'm always listening to things that are about leadership and leadership styles. And I have two, I've mentioned these before, 2 that I really go to every week, but one of my favorites is called How Leaders Lead by my gosh, I just lost the guy's name, David Novak.

14:24 David Novak is the retired CEO of Yum Brands, which includes Pizza Hut, Taco Bell and something else. And he interviews some really amazing leaders throughout all different types of industries. And he has some really great conversations with them that just provide insights about leadership style, communication, managing people, growth, ideas about ways they grew their business, how they overcame struggles and challenges. And it's literally a go to for me every Thursday when it comes out, I'm probably one of the first people listening to. It's called How Leaders Lead because it's helping me continue to develop and enhance my leadership skills. That's great, and I love that a massive component of being able to learn something is being able to practice it and do it, and that reinforces that learning.

15:13 And I think leadership is one of those things that's so easy to connect with when you're in the position where you could learn something, not just because everyone's a leader, but also because it's everyone's worked with a team to some degree. So whether you're going from the top down or the bottom up, there's always things you can cover there. I've always been a fan of Simon Sinek and his show and Adam Grant as well. They tend to have a pretty good time together. So they're they're great to listen to. Thanks, Sid. Alex, did you want to jump in with? Yeah, sure. On Friday nights there is a show called Shark Tank, which a lot of people watch. And right after it is another show called 2020, which is kind of like an investigative reporting type show.

15:59 And they had a story years ago on Elizabeth Holmes. And she was a woman that took the world by storm with she's trying to revolutionize the medical industry by taking one drop of blood and being able to do all these tests. And they did a story on it. And then they created a whole podcast that kind of expanded upon it. It's called the Drop out. And they did a movie and everything else. But that podcast, it's no longer kind of the story's kind of done because she is in jail. But it was, it was like captivating to me. I just couldn't believe the the length that this woman went to.

16:42 I mean, she was in her 30s or late 20s, early 30s, and she just had captivated this whole industry and made billions of dollars and raising millions of dollars. And it was just like the way they structured it was so I just couldn't get enough of it. And that's what really makes it so fascinating. It was it just reminded me of great journalism. And I think that's what that's what you know, when you talk about leadership podcast and you talk about a lot of these things. It's just great journalism and and great drama. And I think that's what people are looking for if they're looking for something for educational.

17:23 This American Life obviously is a is always a big one and it it's really about how you want to where do you want to take your audience? Do you want them up? Do you want them down, left, right. And I think that they that that particular podcast does a great job of, of that. I don't want, you know, a lot of those type of podcasts to do that as well. I. Think that's storytelling coming up. Trump's there for effective ways to deliver information. I was a bit worried, Alex, I was going to have to jump in there at some point and ask you what you learned from this podcast, but I'm glad you came in at the end. You're supposed to learn something. You're supposed to learn something. No, I, I. Didn't you know? Maybe not with with thoroughness. No, I'm. Joking. No. But you know what, what's really funny is you, you said in the beginning, you know, as podcasters we look at, we listen to a podcast differently. And I think, you know, I watch a lot of interviews 'cause I do some interviewing and that's something that, and it's not just podcasting, like learning how to interview someone is a hard thing.

18:24 And learning how to interview some somebody under the gun because people don't realize that when you have a chance to talk to like a celebrity, if you're at a junket, you only have 7-7 minutes with them. So that's a different way. So I mean, I, I've learned a lot from a lot of different people. Yeah. The practice component of things is it just. It can't be underestimated. And even on, I think it was Facebook or Reddit or something yesterday, I saw someone do a massive post about how you just need to get going with your podcast. You just have to do it. Stop thinking about it, stop planning it, just do it. And I think that is reinforced with what you said there, Alex, that the the idea of just taking actions, starting to practice and learning as you go is one of the best ways both for podcasting and for a lot of things. The out of the interview is really interesting as well. That's communicating effectively with people in shorter and shorter time frames.

19:27 That is something that literally only comes with practice unless you've had a previous life before you came to your podcast to be able to do that well. But the learning of things is an interesting question from this context because you can't listen to every interview show on the planet that does a good job and then start your podcast from day one without having done an interview yet. You do have to have a couple under your belt. So asking people on stage at the moment if anyone has a response to this that is it better for us to learn passively as listeners from a podcast? Or is there more benefit for us in creating our own show to then start actioning and practicing things and engaging very deliberately with the content? To be able to create for someone else. Do we think that 1 is better than the other Dr. I'm not sure if you've got a legacy hand up there, but I can see Nick's has popped up I.

20:25 Saw Amanda and then I saw Dr. and then Nick. Sounds good to me, Amanda. Well, I was going to add to the, if you're interviewing someone famous, oftentimes like those, I want people to not like fret too much if they only have 7 minutes because usually those interviews already have like questions approved or whatever. So there's there's already kind of a pre pre planned conversation that's going to go on. But as far as this new question, I feel like no matter how much you consume and how much you learn, which is so amazing from listening, you don't know what you don't know until you go to do something. So I think it's so important that until you go to do it, you're not sure what's missing, what you need to learn more about or learn period. Like there are times that you just thought you knew it all until you actively go to do it and you're like, I knew nothing. Nothing prepares us sometimes to do the act of actually doing. Yeah, that's true.

21:24 Now, Nick, you want us to chime in there? And I believe this is from a new abode from what I can see. Almost. Yeah, I'm, I'm driving to work right now, but yeah, we're closed on a house last week and now we're getting everything kind of cleaned up and set up and going to be officially moved into the new house on Monday. So yeah. That's amazing. I'm jealous. So what have you learned from that experience, or how does that contribute to the podcasting stuff we're talking about today? Planning ahead is definitely worth it. We had all these plans to have contractors in and clean up some of the area, get some stuff renovated before we got all moved in. And it was very much a plan ahead kind of thing. And I think that can definitely help many podcasters down the road.

22:14 So always be thinking 2 steps ahead, yeah? Absolutely. I think the other thing you can always learn from moving house or move, buying a new house and moving into it and getting it ready, is that no matter how many times you do it, it's just as hard every single time. I really don't think someone's got that nailed yet. 100% and the longer you wait to move, the more junk you accumulate, yeah. It's almost like there's some life lessons in there. Nick, what? Why don't you, why don't you float to the top of your brain a couple of podcasts you've listened to in the last few few years that you've learned a lot from and have really helped you. I know you're in the IAI space quite a lot. And I think to my mind, AI related podcasts that talk about it is actually one of those subjects that you quite literally can't just listen to, to learn from. You have to take what these people talk about on these shows and put them into practice in whatever LLM they're talking about if they're specific about it. So which podcasts for AI maybe have been effective for you and have helped you learn the most?

23:23 The big AI podcast that I listen to is AI for Humans, and I wouldn't say necessarily that I learn a ton from it. It more keeps me up to date with some of the new rises in technology. But as far as actually using the tools, you're exactly right. Like until you start putting into practice the AI tools themselves, you really don't have a full grasp as to what they can do. But AI for humans, it's, it's an entertaining show. It's these two guys, they kind of goof off playing with AI and kind of doing dorky things with it. It's a funny show. It's a little bit educational, but it's more like keeping people in the know of what's happening in AI. Which brings me to the point.

24:11 The question you asked a little bit ago was, do you think that almost like should you learn everything first or should you dive in head first without doing any kind of backup and start podcasting just because you know you're going to have to get in those reps? And I think a lot of it is a combination. I think it's good to have some background. I feel like some people will say, no, I don't want any influences from anyone else because I want this to be mine and I want it to be unique. But I think there is definitely something to learn from listening to other shows and seeing what other people are doing. But at the same time, like Amanda said, at a certain point, you need to just jump right in.

24:52 And I, I know we've used the weight lifting analogy here before, but I, I, it just holds so true. Like if you want to start lifting weights, if you want to lose weight, you're like, I'm going to go to the gym and you're going to go stand in front of all of this equipment that you've never used before and expect to use it correctly, not hurt yourself and be effective with what you're doing. It's probably not going to go out too well. You're probably going to want to watch a couple of YouTube videos. What does the form look like? Maybe you're going to get a trainer. Maybe you're going to get a coach and they're going to kind of help guide you in the right direction until you're ready to step into the gym on your own and start doing it yourself. And I think podcasting is very similar. You're going to want to watch some videos. You're going to want to pay attention to what other people are doing, how they're doing it, maybe ask questions, go find another podcaster and say, hey, can you show me how to use this machine?

25:44 Hey, can you show me how to use that mic? Or how do I set this mic up? But at some point, you're not going to see the growth, you're not going to actually see the results of it until you start doing it. And it's going to be hard at first. You're going to put in a lot of tough reps The first couple times you go, you're going to be exhausted and you're like, I can't believe I'm this tired from lifting a 10 LB dumbbell. But over time, that muscle is going to build. You're going to get stronger, you're going to feel more confident and you're going to start crushing it and you're going to feel good about it. You're going to feel good about yourself. And it's just without those initial struggles in those initial reps, you're going to be right where you started, You're not going to be any further along. So I think education is great, but at a certain point you have to start putting in the reps.

26:38 Yeah, I'm glad someone. Else answered a beautiful question. No, no, it's all, it's all incredibly spot on. I think fitness, or at least I've found CrossFit directly is like a a metaphor for a lot of things, particularly podcasting. The one that I go to as an example most often is Matt Fraser, who was like a six or seven times CrossFit champion for a long time. He kind of joined the CrossFit Games in 2014 as a bit of a lock. Like he'd, he'd gone to the gym and done stuff, as the story goes, and he came second and then he had the tenacity to come first every single time he attended the Games after that. But what people sometimes miss about his story is that he was a weightlifter from like 13 years old, broke his back, went to school for to study engineering.

27:30 Like there was such a huge background for Matt Fraser that people can sometimes miss when they get the motivation to go to the gym. And it's the same for podcasting too. Chris Williamson that I look at a lot from modern wisdom. He'll often talk about how he started six years ago and only started getting his success a couple of years prior. And as you said, that's putting in the reps It's not staring down a 800 LB deadlift and just lifting it like you have to work your way there. And, and I think fitness is a really great corollary to those things. Alex saw your hand shoot up there. What would you like to say? You know, it's funny because I give you guys a lot of credit, you know, the people that are doing solo podcasts because I started with a network and I had a whole bunch of mentors, for lack of a better term. And even like picking out a mic.

28:20 They helped me with all this stuff and putting my first podcast together. You know, I had somebody help me with the music and all this other stuff. I, I don't know how I would have done this by myself, not not having that background because it, like you said, you have to put the reps in. It's going to you're going to have its ups and downs. Like yesterday we had technical issues where the music wasn't working for a silly reason. You know, these things always happen and and it's not if something happens, it, it's when it happens and how you handle it. That's that's really the important part. I'd love to hear Dominic's take on on our topic today. Just because you know, you have so many you, you know so many different podcasts and you've and you've seen the process with so many different people, I'd love to hear what you have to say in terms of learning from podcasts. Come on, everybody.

29:14 Hope everybody is well. I mean, honestly, as a narrative podcaster, you're trying to draw inspiration and boundaries and foundations from all over the place, honestly, from even just, you know, TV and film. But for me, podcast that I'm usually listen to, obviously there there a lot of narrative ones I'm listening to like your This American Life or New York Times, The Daily, or I'm listening to the wonder of Stevie by higher ground, right? You know, and one of the things that always stand out is the pacing for me, right?

29:57 You know, where to really get bogged down in, you know, a particular topic or area and when to move on, if you will, right. So as a person who does narrative and you write a script with narration and other people's, you know, audio and stuff like that, you're trying to determine, OK, does this person get across what they need to get across in 50 words? Or can I reduce it to 35 just so that we can move the story forward even more? And so even recently with Black as America, I'm, you know, restructuring a bit to where is less of a bio thematic type of show and more of a thematics theme in the sense of, for instance, when we did the episode about Doug Williams, it wasn't necessarily a conversation.

30:59 I mean, there was a bio aspect to Doug Williams's story, obviously, because we want to tell that story. But but Doug Williams being a black quarterback, it allows us to expand that conversation about black quarterbacks in general in the NFL, as relates to high school, College in the NFL. So those are some of the things that I am seeing and doing as it relates to what I'm learning from other podcasts. And also just another one, there's a new show called our ancestors are messy. And so I think things like that allow for cuz let's be honest, when you hear of history, you think of history class.

31:40 And, and that's not necessarily a very, not always a very catchy thing people want to jump into. But when you can make history engaging and invite that and, and have that entry point, you allow more people to the conversation. And so when you put in messy in the in the in the title of a show, it allows for a little bit of salaciousness, salaciousness, but also at the same time, it allows for a fun entry point for a subject matter that may be people may not want to, you know, would normally not want to jump into. So I guess that's my take on that, I guess. Sounds like the the class in school you like to go to because the teachers just a little bit, not quite tuned up, but absolutely, absolutely, Sid, do you want to jump in?

32:30 In addition to listening to learn about the topic, I'm also because I'm a podcaster, I'm also listening for good and bad practices from other hosts about things I want to incorporate into my show or better yet, things I want to avoid my show. Like there's one podcaster that I listen to that this person doesn't respond to the guests when they make a comment, which I think is a is a missed opportunity to have a dialogue, right, because I have a dialogue podcast. It's but this person goes and I'm like, what's the purpose of that? Right?

33:10 That's just like a, a sound that I don't know, it just drives me crazy. But there's other things like that, that I'm picking up that like, Hey, don't do this. Or when I catch myself doing it, I'm like, dude, you did that. You asked three questions. Why did you question stack? I try to learn about the topic as well as learn best practices and what not to do to make me a better podcaster. Here comes the obligatory jerk, Sid, are you telling me that questions are bad, and if you're telling me questions are bad, that they should be asked differently and in a different way? And if so, why is that important to you? That is my point right there.

33:52 Like what do you do? Which one do you answer? Let's just go from FIFO or first in first out. Absolutely agree with this. And it's that's probably a really great pivot point to to this point, the show where I kind of tried to to push our our minds outside the bounds of podcasting for a bit. But this is the podcasting morning chat. So maybe it's time for us to share like Sid just did, some of the key things that you look out for as a podcaster to that you, you learn from the shows that you listen to and maybe share them with us today as a, a new thing for people to look out for. And I'm, I'm always very cautious when I ask this kind of thing. It's kind of like when you drive on the road and realize that the Ford Focus exists and all of a sudden everyone has a Ford Focus in podcasting.

34:38 And Dr. would probably know this too. In podcasting, it's very easy to critique a thing and then hear more and more and more and more things to critique about other people's shows and then yourself. So there may be things mentioned in the next 20 minutes that you never knew you should have been looking out for before, and then you'll hear it everywhere. But suffice to say that we should always take a measure of moderation with anything that we want to look out for and change and adapt for ourselves, knowing that every show is different. But then there are, you know, general maxims like question stacking is a really good one, I think, and also the not listening before the next question kind of thing where the conversation kind of stops when the guest is done and they go, all right, now here's my next question. You know, it doesn't quite flow that well. But anyway, here I am rambling on with #1 the host rambles on a little bit too long.

35:36 What would you guys say that are on stage at the moment? Maybe Dan, since your your jockey in the DJ today, can you share with us what you've learned from podcasting that's helped you improve your show? I've been sitting here quietly thinking on this question. What have I learned? You know, I've learned just to be more intentional with my conversations and listening with intent has, you know, been a key theme because I've done both interview and solo podcasts. So I've I think I've also learned. Most just fill with the flow like. I, I've told it before here, I don't spend a lot of time editing. I don't get rid of any of the Umm's and Ah's or, or you know, the, the verbal pauses because I go back and listen. My intention there is to focus on steady improvement. So that's probably been one of the biggest factors is how to create content that blows naturally, is enjoyable for me to create and how can I improve it? Now this is the challenging bit with us having learned from the conversation earlier that hearing about it is great, but action and doing is the thing that helps us learn best. So Dan, what would you say people should do to be more intentional with their podcasts?

37:03 Perhaps interviewing experience or what they do in post production. Well, so interviewing experience, I would say if, if that's something that they want to do, do it and ask for feedback after the interview with your guest. What do they think about how the interview flowed? What can you do to improve? And then of course, implementing that is the challenge, as you've just said. So, you know, working to to take note of the top 1-2 or three things that you can do based on any feedback you've received or even in listening which transitions to the next point when you listen back to it, what are the top 1-2 or three things that you can focus on next to work on improvement? Which like I said, ties into the other piece of post production. Go back and listen to your episode. You know, I don't know what the numbers are, but there's a significant number of people that when they first start hearing their voice recorded, they don't like it. So just get comfortable hearing your voice is #1 go back and listen and then look for those things that you want to improve. If you have verbal pauses more so than you would like in your content, instead of maybe you do edit them out, whatever, that's fine.

38:23 I don't if they're there, I'd leave them there because I want not just to see my own improvement, I want to give an opportunity for other people to see that I didn't start with, you know, perfect content and shoot, it's not even close to perfect now, but I didn't, there's a journey that I'm on and that's what I'm sharing with people. And I believe personally that more people need to see that. So go back, listen, note those things down. You know, one of the best tools I've learned is to listen and count how many times you made an error or a verbal pause. Next time that will be in your subconscious mind. It will be top of mind as well. And instead of those verbal pauses, take a moment to breathe and think before you speak, and then just cut silence out if you need to.

39:15 I do find that there's a lot of value in silence, but that reflective practice is, is unreal for everything. Like I think that's a a great maxim for life to just sit back and think about what just happened and write a few things down, count some things and then take that time to put it into practice the next time. Alex, I'm curious about you because you break the production rule and of working, not working with animals and children. Is there anything that you any podcasts you've learned from specifically that you have taken to heart yourself, your own show? And how would the the listener type practice that for themselves? You know, one of the best things that I've learned in terms of I have a podcast partner and I know Amanda can speak to this, you know, and you know, is one of the things that I. I always try to break, which I haven't done a great job of, but you know, reflecting on the the episode, you know, she'll listen to it.

40:15 I have to listen to it because I edit that. That's a great way of of kind of self learning. That's the first thing I just go on to you. I don't specifically go on to anyone podcast. I go on a topic, whether it's my show or you know what I say, my show, people covering the same thing that I'm covering versus, you know, with, with my daughter, this podcast, actually, she's more of a pro than I am because she went to the University of YouTube and she understands exactly how it's supposed to be. I think there's a lot of value in looking at kids podcasts or kids content because they're geared towards keeping it simple.

41:10 I think that's the one thing and I don't have anyone podcast or anything else because the podcasts that I listen to aren't really conventional. I listen to a lot of sports podcasts and they're all over the place. So that doesn't make it, you know, they're they're not winning any, they're not winning any webbies or anything. They're just trying to put out content. But I think that if you keep it simple, look at some of those kid podcasts and don't yes, the contents important, but I think the structure, I think that's what I learned the most from all of this because having severe dyslexia and maybe a little ADHD probably as well. It's about the structure for me.

41:54 But I see Dominic wants to pop in. So one of the things that especially in the narrative space that try to get over to new podcasters is when they figure out that they can sound design, they over sound design. So like they try to recreate entire scenes and not really relying on what we like to call the theater of the mind, right? Like saying basically you just need just enough for that theater of the mind to activate in the listeners psyche or in the brain, if you will. And so sometimes they want to recreate the birds, they want to recreate the plane, they want to recreate the entire scene where they don't really need to.

42:36 They need just enough to do exactly what they need to do. But also in addition to that, that you can actually sound design with no sound design with descriptive language. I think more some of the most compelling audio I've ever heard was from a gentleman who was sharing his experiences AD day. He experiences AD day and storming the beaches. And he just used descriptive language. There was no music, there was no sound design. And basically like you get to hear the pain. You can hear the fear in his in his, the crackling of his voice. And like the my theater of the mind was activated just from him speaking. No sound design, no, no Foley or anything. So I think sometimes understanding that, like being descriptive and not overdoing it can be very valuable. Most definitely, it takes a very well, well written and articulated bit of speaking to be able to create those scenes too.

43:39 Like there's so much I, I really love hearing the stuff that you talked about there, Dominic. When I hear it in a podcast, whether it's a narrative one or whether it's someone sharing their experience. In fact, there's been a few clients that I've edited for that have shared very direct experiences of trauma as a as related to natural disaster back in Australia. And as an editor, when you're cutting together that show, you can sometimes feel when that moment's going to come. And if it's just an interview, you don't have the sound design that's filtered in there. You're picking up on facial cues, if it's video, audio cues, a difference in language, the ability to fill what is otherwise empty space with something that the brain infers instead. That's incredibly powerful.

44:30 And I also say that being useful as someone who has sound designed 20 seconds of an intro and had that take a couple of hours, which seems really inordinately long. But this is a great transition to maybe Dr. if you can share some of your experiences you've had with clients, because I know after somebody mentioned before that people can over edit an interview that they can be, they want to chop all the pieces together to create the conversation the way they want to. But it's too much. It's way too much. And I know you yourself, just like me, would have sometimes had clients that give way too many feedback notes about the things they want changed when it's not their fingers doing the changing.

45:15 So what kind of stories have you got that you? You know, I used to do, I used to do a lot of theatre and there's something in theater when a director sits back and he he gives you line readings on exactly how you should say that line. And that is so freaking frustrating for an actor on stage. And to draw the parallel to podcasting, I sometimes have to bite my tongue, like listen, listen to that guest. Why didn't you pick up on that? Why didn't you ask? Oh, there was such a perfect opportunity. And thank God that I listen on the back end like it's already happened, you know? And sometimes I can edit things out because sometimes it's really, really frustrating.

46:06 And I try and put on my regular listener ears as opposed to my producer ears, but it is frustrating. And there are other times, I mean, I edit a show that the host is all over the place. He asks the question about, you know, the origins of where they came from. And then he switches to it's just, it's like a jigsaw puzzle and all the pieces are in the box and all jumbled up. And he leaves it up to me to put the jigsaw puzzle together. And sometimes I do. I have to take a little piece here on the beginning, a little piece there at the end.

46:51 I shove them together because they are more conducive. So yeah, just stay in your lane, you know, just. What's that point what you're saying? I have a question for you, Dr. Do you, do you find, I mean, could you get him to do an outline or to try to clean that up? You know, I, I came in after he was like on episode 28. So he's been doing it one way and I let it go #1 it's a good challenge for me. And I'm always up for a challenge.

47:32 So yeah, I. Like challenges too, but that's that's. Yeah. Listen, the the interesting thing about the position that Dr. and myself and potentially Dominic is in as well is that we're in a position where the client is always right and we can't point to the thing that says this is what podcast is make your podcast this like we we can't really do that from our perspective. So it becomes really hard sometimes when you see a lot of glaring issues with what could be an amazing podcast. How you suggest that to to make changes to the way that they've been doing things for so long? To kind of and sometimes Matthew, it really depends upon the the client. I mean, if they come to you saying, you know what, I so appreciate your help.

48:20 I am, I'm clueless. I don't know what to do. And I just appreciate your guidance that I know is someone who's going to respect my suggestions and take them. Yeah, that is really a partnership. And and there are some that say just, you know, and they say to me, stay in your life. So it's not like the words that they say, but it's basically saying stay in your life. Just just edit. Just edit. I'm like, oh. Now I understand both sides. I mean, I've been on both sides. You know when I mean, I haven't done it on your side, Matt and Dr. but I can see both sides in it. What's that?

49:03 Feedback is hard. Like even if you're a good friend who's listened to your friend's show and you're like, oh, he doesn't put the dog in the backroom, keeps staying there, but how do I tell him that he just needs to put his dog in the next room? Or maybe, oh, I have. No problem saying that. I'm going to jump in here for just a hot second because I have a different perspective on this. Feedback is a gift. If you are truly trying to improve at your craft and to grow, feedback is not just a gift, it's a blessing. Now, as the editor of the shows, it's your challenge to figure out how to provide that feedback in a way that it doesn't come across as criticism.

49:45 None of us want to be criticized, right? But feedback is a gift. And you know, I think if you can provide constructive feedback about because we all want our shows to be better. We all want our shows to have more listeners. We all want our shows to get a greater reach. Approach it from that perspective that hey, Mr. Podcaster, I think I have some ideas that might actually help your show increase its reach. Would it be OK with you that I share these with you? That's for permission. And then share them in a constructive, concise way that will help them. And DRI think that your comment about the guy that you came in at 28 and he's been doing it the same way for a while is riddled with judgment. It's judgment that he can't change, that he can't grow, that he's not willing to grow, right.

50:38 And I think we have to release those types of things in order to help people. It's just like being a boss or a manager or a leader, right? It's your job to help your employees grow and develop and become the best version of themselves. That's kind of what you do in the seat that you're sitting in. So as I'm out of breath, feedback is a gift and a blessing. He said what I wanted to say, but just so much better with a southern accent. No, no, I mean, well, A not New Jersey Epson, but I will say this to his point, to Sid's point, because you're coming into it and he's hiring you, that may be that like he said, the perfect Sid set is the perfect time to say, hey, listen, you've been doing it this way, I've been editing it this way.

51:29 Maybe you want to consider XYZ, whatever you know. And if he doesn't take it, he doesn't take it. I think the the biggest thing, like, I mean, you're both absolutely spot on and I think Dr. would agree, but the podcast editors Rd. is, is a lonely Rd. sometimes. And I think we can sometimes err on the side of venting before we get to what we actually do. As you know, solution providers and service offers, which invariably becomes what you said there, Sid, like with any person, someone comes on brand new. You need to kind of build that relationship, see how they receive feedback and Orient that feedback in a way that ensures that you can deliver what they want. And at the same time, they can come to the table and take on your advice.

52:16 And that's ultimately what the advice is there for podcasting professionals that are looking that see all the things that that we kind of leaned into for the last 20 minutes there and want to provide that value for their client, but sometimes feel they can't. And I think that's it's probably an entirely different podcast of its own. Maybe Dr. we have the the the podcast editors vent off show where we in end with all the tips and. That would be awesome. And I think there's going to be cigars and bourbon involved with that, but it's going to be Matthew. Tones. Well, good time it is. We've actually managed to fill a whole hour and the podcast is still survived.

53:00 It has survived, it's lived. We've come out learning to learn, learning how to share that learning with other people, and then learning to learn how to learn, sharing what other people share to learn. And all of you have made fantastic contributions today. Really do appreciate it. And I know the community has to. To all of you on stage and all of you in the audience, thank you for being present with us on the Clubhouse session today. If you're listening to this on replay, just know that 7:00 AM, it's some American time zone that you can check in the show notes. You can join us on the clubhouse every weekday, permitting that there isn't a public holiday of some description. And we welcome all comers, bring your opinions, bring your thoughts. We'd love for you to be able to share it on the show as well. So we'll be back tomorrow with potentially the news. I'm not sure.

53:49 I'll have to check the schedule. How's that for a tease? Anyway, thank you all for coming podcasting morning chat out. We'll see you next time.