Why Podcasting Is Becoming a Powerful Career Tool

0:03 Marc Ronick: Today we're presentation of Empowered stream I host with Jason Circone This week we're joined by Annika Jackson, host of Your Brand Amplified, a marketing and communications strategist, professor at USC Annenberg and one of our featured speakers at the Empowered Podcasting Conference. In this conversation, Annika shares how podcasters can turn their shows into true revenue engines by thinking beyond downloads, sponsorships, and traditional advertising. We explore how your podcast can create new business opportunities, support a larger brand ecosystem, and generate revenue without simply adding more ads.

0:49 And now, here's our on Empowered Podcasting Live. Jason: Welcome back to Empowered as we do every Wednesday at 1o'clock p.m. Eastern Time, to give you a upcoming Empowered Podcasting deeper with some of our sponsors event possible, and of course, take a look at what's happening in the world of podcasting. I am one of your hosts, Jason Circon. I am running the ship today, and this is my first time ever manning the cockpit for a live stream via Riverside.

1:30 So, if this gets screwed up, we blame Marc because he decided to take a road trip and can't man the controls. But I will throw it to Marc to say hello. He's on the road to Maryland with his lovely wife Amy. What's going on, Marc? Marc Ronick: Yes, and what I told our guest Annika is, I promise I am not driving. I am in the passenger seat. There's some proof right there. The wife is there, and the dog Harley is there too. So, and he'll, and both of them will be at Empowered Podcasting in August. Jason: Yes, it would not be an Empowered Podcasting without Harley there Marc Ronick: and Amy too, and Amy too. Harley, more importantly, yes, Jason: the unofficial mascot of empowered podcast. Marc Ronick: That's right, Jason: and of course, joining us I was going to say the birthday? Did you go out and have a few drinks for your for? Rich: Yeah, you know, you know, had had a you know something good, something good. 21st birthday, you know. Good, good job.

2:23 Living it up. Jason: Good to hear it. Rich is with us once again, and this week we are joined by the one and only Annika Jackson. How are you, Annika? Annika Jackson: Hello, I'm good. everybody in person in just a Jason: How about that? It's a couple weeks away. Like we're almost into August, and the countdown officially begins, man. Well, we're getting pumped up for empowered podcasting. If our excitement doesn't come through the microphone every week when we join you here live, moments before we talk to Annika to thank some of our sponsors that are helping make empowered podcasting conference possible.

3:07 friend. All right, here we go. So, big shout out to the content creators accountant, our title sponsor this year. Also, Bourbon Barrel Podcasting, Maker's Machine, MoPod will be sponsoring the pre-party Thursday night, so make sure you get there early. A big shout out to one of our track sponsors, the Podcast Professionals Association. Rich: AI assisted author is sponsoring the journals. Pod to Book AI is going to be a track sponsor and sponsoring the author meet and greet. My apologies, but we appreciate y'all. Jason: So many great businesses coming to help us support the conference this year. It's hard to keep them straight sometimes. That's a good problem to have.

3:48 Always great, and we're looking forward to having everybody in the house. Marc Ronick: After last year, it's a great problem to have. Last year was a lot more challenging. 100% We have so many companies and organizations Jason: 100% Annika, welcome to Let's talk a little bit about you. Obviously, you're going to bring be bringing some great value to the stage at conference here in a couple We'll talk about that, but you've got a lot going on with your brand Amplify too. So tell us about some of the exciting and fun developments happening within your podcast and within your company. Annika Jackson: Wow! And it's you know what's funny is it's so much easier to interview people than it is to toot your own horn with your brand amplified. I have been coaching some entrepreneurs who are wanting to podcast experience they weren't quite happy with, so just walking them through the system, and it's the same thing I do at USC with my podcasting for brand building class, where I walk students and they have a podcast by the end of our session, our semester. So I have that going on, and that's been really fun. Your brand amplified the podcast, of course, and then I just started a new podcast called Practical Pedagogy: The Art of Teaching for the Future of Work, and that's something I'm really excited about because that's where I get to get really wonky and really go for.

5:18 I'm like, am I alone in this room? And where I get to really get wonky about you know what does it mean for the future of work with AI? So that's my newest podcast launched earlier this month, and or it is the podcast is just going to be my PhD because every single guest is bringing something very unique, and that's what I love about podcasting. We can do the ones that grow, that then start, you know, giving us a name or making money or being something people want to listen to, and then I feel like that also gives us the flexibility and freedom to start ones. Like I love your brand Amplified, but I also love all these other topics, so it kind of gives me the freedom to start this next one and get to a new podcast all over again. Jason: That's pretty cool.

6:07 I'd like to dive into that a little bit more, but before we do, I want to ask you. This is something that it's been on my mind, especially with what you're doing at USC and bringing podcasting to a college campus and giving people the tools, or giving college students the tools at an earlier stage, I've been wondering about podcasting and the way that it's developing and evolving. Could it be a new resume, or could it replace a resume someday? Because I feel like if I'm going to go for the job of my dreams, and I spend years building content around that prior to applying for those jobs, I'm going to get taken that asset in place versus just a piece of paper that talks about the things that I have maybe won't play a role. What are your thoughts on that? Annika Jackson: I love the way that you're thinking, Jason, and 100.

6:54 This is something that resume. I've taught the class for two semesters. Now it's gone from being a special topic to having its own code number at USC, and it's a regular class offering. And every time I've seen more and more students stick with a podcast, and some of them are certainly using it as a resume builder. Then they can go when they're doing interviews; they can say they have these skills. But I'm also teaching it from the perspective of being a brand builder. It's not all about you know because we do have great people on staff and faculty who will teach more about the fine details of production, right? Of being a story producer, and mine is really about how do you start a podcast, how do you create a business plan around it, and how do you learn how to do a little bit of everything in the process, so then you can figure out what you're best at and what you're not really interested in doing. So my students are editing their podcasts. I don't edit.

7:46 I've never edited my podcast because my life partner is a film editor. So it's been really nice to you know not have to go through the hard part myself for that. But the students have a really strong foundation. And to your point, this weekend I was at a one-year-old's birthday party. birthday party was in the film So the question you get is, so are you also in TV? And these are people who have been executives at Lifetime, at Netflix, at major companies. She's been reality TV on many of So now she's running a social media content, but she was saying she misses interviewing people, and so now she's looking at getting into podcasting. And she looks at all of this reality TV content as content, not as just TV shows that we all watch. So when we look at it from a content driven perspective, 100% starting a podcast, knowing how to do that world.

8:45 We see every. I mean, we have to acknowledge, right? Netflix has its own podcast arm now. Every TV show has a podcast now. There are many, many, many more fan podcasts about TV shows. People want content, and they wanted about everything, and it's the fastest way for people to digest content these days. So, when it comes to journalism, only it's a resume builder; it is the resume for these students coming out, and it's something that we all need to be thinking of in a bigger, bigger way. Rich: Annika, my question is: You said that the podcasting course recently got its own code credits, whether it's one credit or three credits.

9:31 Hopefully, three credit. Ooh, four credits. Annika Jackson: We're already it's gone from 599 special So it has its own place in the catalog, no longer in a place with other court. You know, there's usually like several special topics. Rich: So my question is, love it. How much buy-in did you have to get from the school from USC, kind of like approached you and just asked you to write the curriculum? Like I'm curious to know because I know that I've pitched courses in my local area, and like you really need to put a lot of work into it. And sometimes the school may not have the resources to make it happen as a curriculum-based course or as a credit-based course. So tell us a little, like even just a little bit about that. Like, what kind of buy-in you have to get from them? I'd love to hear that a little bit about that. Annika Jackson: 100% And there's One thing is having a podcast is part of what got me into becoming a professor. So I'm part-time faculty.

10:38 I started out as adjunct. Now I teach 12 credits a semester during the regular school year, and then I teach whatever is available in the summer. But I started out on the journalism and PR side, and so I started teaching a class because I had a PR firm at the And part of the interview podcast, and you can use it as a So it was already because USC is, I think, the number one communication school in the Maybe number two, you know, somewhere in that one to two range. So they already had a lot of courses, like a lot of the journalism classes don't end with you creating a radio show or a broadcast, it is now you're creating a podcast at the end of your at the end of the course. So there's already a small inclination towards this. That was what literally got me into the program to start teaching.

11:33 Then the digital side, the comm side, took me and said, "Oh, but this is a digital these classes. So that's number one. Number two is I'd already created a course for entrepreneurs. I just I'm not like super salesy, so I don't like you know selling things like going you know beating people over the head and doing all the lead gen stuff. So I've been sitting on a course that I'd created, and my mentor who also helped me get into USC is one of my program directors, and he's like, "Hey, we're looking for a few more electives. What do you have? So I gave him three or four or five suggestions, and he said, "Let's let's develop the podcasting one. I already had the curriculum built; I just had to switch it up to fit, you know, college curriculum, and then tweak it a little bit every semester.

12:20 So then he said, "Yeah, okay, flesh this out some more. I fleshed out some more. It got accepted, and then the next semester I was teaching off and running, and it's a slow burn because students don't want to necessarily pay a lot of money to take a class that's a new class. So I had a few students, and then I had a pretty like think a full, completely full class, or maybe one or two students off from a full class this last term, and then I think I have six spots left for this upcoming term. So it took a little while, but I'd also been at every adjunct get together, trying to get in front of the right people to say, "Hey, I know we have a few podcasting classes, but we really need to have more. We need to have a conference. We need to do a whole bunch of And I know that's something we wanted to talk about too, because y'all are helping me put on the first USC podcast conference in March of 2027. So thank you, super excited about that. But it's been my way to kind of worm the world of podcasting into the campus in a bigger way.

13:16 My ultimate goal is to have a bigger podcast division, so it's yes, 100% I mean, they were looking for new classes. Podcasting is something that they see as important, and we have a really beautiful podcast. We have actually three different studios just in Annenberg in our media center, not including, and we have multiple other ones in the business, you know, in every other college on the campus. So people are definitely seeing that. Haven't gotten the full buy-in for all the other things that I sneakily want to do, but this is the first step: is getting the course, making sure people right that they're giving it good ratings and reviews, that they're continuing with their podcasts after they finish the class because I think that's success. And don't stop trying, Rich.

14:06 Marc Ronick: Yeah, no, I know, You've done some classes, right? You've definitely taught some classes. Rich: Yeah, I do teach an enrichment class, so it's a non-credit class with Johns Hopkins University's Odyssey program, and that's a LinkedIn course. But yeah, I've definitely been interested in doing a a credit base, so I might pick your brain at EPC. Annika Jackson: Definitely, Marc Ronick: I had one follow up I was really curious about the one year old birthday party and the fact that there are all these TV people there, and I'm curious if the conversation came up. What, how are these industry people in the big media spaces reacting to podcasting these days?

14:47 Are they excited about it? Do does it seem like it's a nuisance to them? It used to be the big media people would kind of laugh at podcasting. They got nice and pat us on the head, right? But I. Obviously, it's expanding so much, and I'm just curious. Like, what are their reactions when you say you're in the podcasting space? Annika Jackson: Well, funnily that much of the conversation people who were there, and they already knew I was the professor and podcasters. We probably had some of those conversations. Jason: Sure, Annika Jackson: I love that you're pointing this out though, because I remember that, gosh, even a year, two years ago, it was the trope of like you go somewhere, I'm a podcaster, just like in LA, you meet somebody, oh, I'm an actor, right?

15:32 So it was kind of one of those things, like oh, now everybody's a podcaster, and even on TV shows, we'd see somebody, and now you can't see a reality show probably without somebody being a podcaster on it, and then of course it having its own podcast after. So I think it is just seen as part of the standard now. It's not seen as something I think it started the groundswell got big enough that it has to be taken very seriously, which is why to that point, somebody who'd been in TV for 18 years, whose husband is a writer and producer and director, still right on many many shows, is saying I miss interviewing people on these reality shows, so I'm thinking about starting a podcast. So it is being seen as something really viable. Marc Ronick: Very cool.

16:18 Jason: I think you combine that with the fact that you've got so many established celebrities that are they're looking more at that long form conversation, and I remember I haven't heard a lot of talks about people saying podcasting is dead lately because they oh it's being replaced by short form content. Like God, God, I'm glad that conversation for the most part has died. Rich: Yeah, Jason: but I think the celebrity model proves it, and to have that interaction where they can connect with people, get more in depth with the storytelling, not have to be cut off or limited to just a few questions. It goes way beyond what they're doing in their in movies or television shows, but digs deeper into the stories that actually got them there. It's pretty cool stuff.

17:00 Annika Jackson: Yeah, and it's relationship, right? That they have with their fans. So fans are getting to know people on a different level beyond just a character and being interviewed about that character on a show. They can now get more in depth and so it's actually creating a tighter bond with their fans. Now, of course, we know the already have a built-in translate that audience to their immediate advantage over the rest of us. But the nice thing is, I think a lot of people like to hear from everyday people as well, and like to hear that our stories. I mean, I'm a big fan of threads right now, and I love just seeing peeks into other people's lives.

17:43 Right, it's really what podcasting continue in its purest form continues to bring to people. Marc Ronick: Are you a fan of threads for personal reasons, or do you see it having potential to help podcasters promote their podcast? Annika Jackson: To be perfectly, days of social media where you I don't use it for. I mean, I have of course my podcast link in my you know bio profile, whatever, but I don't have it attached to any of my Instagram accounts except for my personal one. So I'm not posting. I'm not cross posting content from Facebook or from Insta or anything else. I really just want it to be kind of back to the basics. I see a couple people in the podcasting world, not people I know personally, who are trying to use it to sell to clients, and it just comes across as disingenuous to me.

18:38 Ronick: I totally I totally That particular platform does feel a little old school, and Jason, I think I saw you post something recently saying that you know it really is just that it's just putting out questions, talking with people, having random conversations, and anything you put out that's promotional, it's just ghosted. Nobody looks at it. It's really interesting, Jason: and I think that's algorithmic. I really think that Threads is designed for the conversations for, and that's where the post you're referring to is something I posted yesterday. That it's an promotion model of sell yourself first, showcase the value that you have as a content creator, as a podcaster, as a human being, and the more you start interacting with people, the more they're going to want more value from you, and then that's where they go and find your podcast.

19:28 Because I've up until probably the last few weeks, I would try posting the blog that I do for each podcast episode, or maybe a clip here and there. again, I just I think Threads is of people because it's not what the platform is for. But I will say, Annika, you said it perfectly. It reminds me of the old days of Twitter, which I think is why I'm having more fun on that platform and trying to lean into it more. Because back in the day, that was my jam. I loved early Twitter Annika Jackson: back in the day. Jason: Back in the day, oh yeah, rolling around, and it was world that the kids will never But I loved it, and I feel threads is capturing a little bit of that vibe. And the conversations are great.

20:15 If you have, if you connect with people the right way, they're going to reciprocate. And if you're not throwing your business in their face, it's just an added bonus. Annika Jackson: And to your some really great opportunities. I was able to get a client on a radio show in the UK with a single that she wrote. She was 15. She went viral. She was completely unknown artist, but they had a greeting from her, and they used her as the first song for I think their New Year's countdown. One of my team members, when I had my PR firm, was on Twitter and saw somebody posting. It was during Asian hate, right? So during COVID era, and so she saw that a pretty live, a pretty large company, Live Nation Ticketmaster, was looking for panelists for an AAPI panel, and I was able to be panelists and speak to people from within the company from all over the world about you know my experiences or Asian people have. So there were really good opportunities like that did come up, and yeah, somebody put them out there, and I do see some of that.

21:15 And those are things that are not like overly promotional. It's not somebody selling, but it's where somebody needs something, and I think that's what community is all about, right? What do people need? Do they need validation? Do they need assistance finding somebody they haven't seen in 20 years? You know, what's the And that is when we're at our best, we're helping people solve what problem, right? And getting to that, and we're doing it organically. Jason: Annika, one question I wanted to ask you, going back to the curriculum, and you had mentioned how the real showcase of success, at least from a student starting a podcast, is whether they continue it after graduation. You also had mentioned how the celebrities have that built-in audience, which most of us do not have when we first get started.

21:59 How soon in the curriculum are you bringing that up with the students so they understand they the right mindset, so they're not thinking that just starting a podcast makes them Amy Poehler or Joe Rogan? Annika Jackson: Pretty early on, I mean, I have a former student who has a podcast who works at YouTube, and she used to be at TikTok, you know, and she came and spoke to the class, and her podcast does fine. It's, but it's not. It probably helps her with her job, but it's not making her the money to not have to do anything about that a lot, and we talk about what it takes. So they have to create a business plan that includes their marketing mix, and that has to include, you know, paid media as well as earned media as well as sharing on socials and your website and everywhere else and on your owned media.

22:48 So we go through that model and we talk about like, here's what it took for me to get to where I am at now. And guess what? Some months are still better than others. It doesn't matter, you know. Maybe it's the guest, or maybe it's that you didn't put out as much content, or some other reason. Just because you have one month that's you know in the hundreds of 1000s doesn't mean every month is going to be like that. explicit, and I share a lot of scenes with different podcasts. I love to have guest speakers come in and talk about that. But and the interesting thing is, a lot of my students also come from China, and from countries. I've last semester, I had very I had some from Germany, from London, like who were at USC now, right? From other countries, and so some of them aren't even looking at U.S. platforms, right?

23:40 So I try to show them, but I get them on to like, you know, a hosting site in the U.S. I say put your content out in Chinese on these other platforms, but also put it out in Chinese on this platform And they're seeing, oh, I am U.S. who want to hear a podcast in their native language, so it's about kind of helping them redirect their framing on everything. And by the end of class, most students say this was a lot harder than I thought it would be. But a lot of them also say, "But it's worth it. Jason: It's not just the snap your fingers and the magic happens.

24:21 It's actually work, but the work can be incredibly valuable. I love it. So, well, we're going to take a quick break here in a moment to share a couple announcements about the conference in a few weeks. But before we do, Annika, one last time, real quick, plug a little bit more about your conference coming up in the spring of 2027 and what you hope to accomplish at that conference. Annika Jackson: Thank you. Yeah, so I have been since I started as an adjunct. I've been like, we need to have a podcast conference here because what I was seeing is that none of the major podcast conferences are doing anything on the West Coast, and there are a lot of podcasters out here. I mean, I'm in LA, right? So there. The whole industry, the entertainment industry, with But I wanted to do a few things. One is bring people into USC, help USC brand a podcast conference on the West Coast, so we have something here. Whether people want to fly in for it, that's also fantastic, and we want that to happen.

25:18 But you also want something where people don't have to travel as far because it's a conference at USC. We also, you know, these are not conferences where we're trying to make money. We're a nonprofit institution, so we're really trying to create an environment for learning and for building people in to see like what we're podcasting on campus. So I'm, you know, that's what really excites me is bringing people together, and it's not about the celebrity quotient. It's not about that. It's really about who's really interested in getting involved or already invested in this, or and how can I bring together people like yourselves again who will help, who will really be able to talk and talk about the good parts, the bad parts, and give really practical advice to people Jason: that is awesome, and that's early march, Annika Jackson: 1 weekend of March.

26:05 Yes, Jason: Annika, bringing her own version of March Madness to the USC campus. We love it. All right, well, let's take a quick break, as I said, and talk about what's happening with the Empowered Podcasting Conference. weeks away from convening in the Hyatt Centric Hotel for our third annual event, Rich, why don't you tell us a little bit that we have helping us build Rich: Yeah, so one of the things addition to having you know your of visuals, you know the logo nature. Because we are creators ourselves, we wanted to have a special program just for our creators, and we launched the Creator Partner Program, giving the opportunity to our creator community to be a part of it as an official sponsor, doing what it is that they do best.

27:02 So, I'm going to shout out some of our creator partner program sponsors: the Chern Report podcast, Mozan Wellness, the podcast teacher, Success on Social, Volt Productions, our now, and then, Cassiano Creative; those are our creator partner participants, and they are official sponsors of EPC Three. And we're so grateful to have you. Jason: Very, very cool. And Marc, I know you've got something very cool to share with everyone today. Marc Ronick: So I'm really excited. We secured a photographer for this coming August. We actually have two, but one in particular. His name is Randy Young.

27:46 His company is called Cut and Shoot. And one of the cool things we're bringing this year that we haven't done in the first two years, he's going to take some time and offer headshots to everybody. I think that is one of the most common things I hear from podcasters is I don't have a professional headshot, so will picture of me at the amusement You know, and it doesn't always work well. So he's going to be setting up basically like a booth, and he's all and he is charging for it, but it's only 25 bucks. And I think if I don't quote me on this part, but I think you get like three different pictures from him for that. And like I said, I mean he's a pro, so you're going to be able to walk away with some choose when you come to a Jason: Very good. So not only will you probably end up in a couple candid photos from the weekend thanks to Randy and Amelia's work, but you'll also get your opportunity to get those headshots taken.

28:45 So, Marc Ronick: yeah, Jason: I will resurrect my weekly theme song and tell you: go buy your freaking ticket. What are you waiting for? empoweredpodcasting.com. Use code EPC Jason 20 to save 20% I get to use my code again because I'm running the Riverside this week. Use EPC Rich 20, EPC Mark 20, but overall, get your ticket. Join us in Charlotte. tremendous time. We can guarantee that. There's so much value on the stage, but there's going to be a lot happening in the hallways as well. When you buy your ticket, you are automatically entered to win a brand new Shure MV7 microphone, MV7 Plus microphone. So make sure you're getting your tickets now, and we look forward to seeing you in Charlotte.

29:30 So staying on that theme, Annika, we know you're taking the stage once again. You were on stage at EPC2 without giving away all of the details and all of the value behind your presentation. Tell us a little bit about what we should expect from you as you grab the microphone and rock it once again this year. Annika Jackson: Thank you. It's interesting. I'm not going to talk about AI or brand building or any of the things that I typically speak about. I'm going to speak about something that I've given to. Smaller groups, which I'm really excited about, and that's I'm just gonna say revenue cascade, right? So thinking about a lot of people think they're gonna start a podcast, they're immediately gonna start making money.

30:11 That's not true. It takes time, and it is an investment. And a lot of people think, okay, I have to have ads on my show, and that's the only way I can make money, and that's also not true. So we're going to walk through some things that I know are tried and true. How I've been able to monetize outside of advertising, because I do advertising. I do accept advertising on just one of the shows that I run, and I have a few others. So I'll talk about that, and I'll talk about things that people can do, and I'll also talk about a couple of new resources that I've just become part of that are going to be really good for podcasters of all sizes, and that really help us figure out the most intentional ways to make money. Marc Ronick: Can you share a little bit about the what kinds of resources are those?

30:55 Annika Jackson: Yeah, well, I know, there are a whole bunch of you can post your podcast and make deals for money, and they vary. There's ones that only accept women podcasters. I like to try things before I talk about them, so some of them are better than others. And there's a new one that actually approached me for one of my very small because I Zenzone Power Hour. It's very small. Doesn't always come out every week. It's kind of you know because I'm not always able to have conversations with the former Zen monk that I've learned from for that podcast. kind of give myself permission seriously. But they reached out of this platform, reached out about that podcast, and said, "Hey, we may have some advertisers for you.

31:42 And as a platform, not just for podcasters, it's also for all kinds of creators. And they, you put your profile in, and you put what kind of sponsors you want, and you can make sponsor pitches right there. But they will also have people come to you. It'll even tell you these are some other podcasters or some content creators you should partner with to get your, you know, to get your stuff out more, and so I haven't played around with enough to give it the name out yet, and to also like validate what I, you know, the thesis that they're bringing to me, academic, right? I'm still playing with it right now, actually, over the next couple weeks to see what happens and if it's something that you know I might not, with my very small other podcasts feel like I'm ready, but those podcasts again, I'm not putting a lot of energy into the promotion of them.

32:28 They're more just for those are the ones for fun, and because I'm under a contract with your brand amplified, I can't use it for that. So, so I think there might be a mid tier, but I am trying it out. I have some other podcasters going to ask to see, you know what they can do with it as well. So that's just one way. But you know, I also have turned this into a business that I never thought that I would turn it into when I started I didn't think I'd be teaching a class. I didn't think I would have a program for entrepreneurs. I didn't think that would lead to a lot of other opportunities that bring money in. So, you know, I think a lot of us probably have that. to build a business. We usually maybe have a business and do a podcast. So, I'm going to just talk a lot about, and hopefully, it's going to be a really open conversation. I want people to bring, you know, who are in the audience to talk about their experiences and what they've seen work or not work.

33:20 Marc Ronick: I think that's one of the brilliant things about empowered podcasting is that you intentionally a more intimate speaker sessions lends itself to the presenter on stage. There's just something about it for me that I feel like I learn a lot better that way when I'm able to sit and interact with the person I'm learning from, and that's one of the things I love about what we do. Jason: Yeah, could not agree more. Annika Jackson: Yeah, and I guess I will point out that although you know I started my podcast, I was having fun, and then realized it was a business. people to look at them for I do share to be intentional, and so there is a podcaster I'm working with right now. She's been podcasting for a few years. She knows exactly who her target market is, so we're doing really intentional slow growth for numbers. But our more important thing is: does she have everything set up properly for lead gen?

34:16 Because the people she's having on her show are the right audience for what she does, but she needs to build out a few other things. So we've created a six month plan for that, right? So I do. I will talk about some of those things, like how you can build out your own plan for your goals. My podcast has also become a great source of recommendations. I've hired, you know, people who've been on my podcast. I've hired for the things that they do that they've talked about on my show. who've been on my show, so it funnel for your business, So I will talk about how to systems into that, so that you goals, whether they are Know brand deals, or simply just having the right people on who would be good for your business. Jason: That is going to be incredibly insightful. Can't wait to hear what you have to say. And outside of obviously, we know you're bringing What are you most looking Empowered Podcasting Conference? Annika Jackson: Ooh, what am I most looking forward to seeing people in person because there are so many of us in this world who do a lot of work.

35:27 We speak at the conferences, we show up, we put a lot of time and intentionality into what we do, but we don't get to get together that often. And there are people that I'll meet with semi regularly. Jason being one of those. I mean, Jason, your posts are what brought me to empowered podcasting. You know, seeing what you did the first year, going to it, and then last year when you put out the call for speakers, I'm like, let me just see if I can like become a speaker, and then okay, this is amazing, right? And then this year, getting to return as a speaker, but also being more involved, and in between saying, hey, I have this idea that I want to bring to USC, and I think you would be the perfect partner. And so, those are the kind of relationships and things that build from seeing people in person. And I know there's no such thing as-I mean, we all are But I don't truly feel like an constantly. What do I?

36:20 I need to work on my SEO. I need to like go back and revamp all of this stuff. What's something else I can test and try? And so there's so much more we can learn from each other. And so I love hearing that, learning from other people, and I'm really looking forward to taking a lot of notes. Marc Ronick: I do have a genuine you know maybe maybe Jason or me or Rich or what was it that got you to say I want these guys to help me with my conference at USC because I'm asking this because I I know you've been to other So what was it about this one that drew you to us to say, "Come help me do this at USA. Annika Jackson: Yeah, well, you're all very approachable, and I think it's I think that's an important quality. And it's not a you know you're not always able to speak to the people who are running the operation, who are the founders of a conference, right?

37:17 And so that number one, number two, I want to really make the conference for the people. I want to make sure that it's accessible to people who maybe aren't even podcasters yet, who are thinking about starting one. Right from them to the experts, I don't want to gatekeep, and that's something I really feel like you do well. Is like you want everybody to share. We're all in this together, and we all have something we can learn, and we all have something we can teach, right? So, just pure, purely selfish reasons, being able to approach you and say, "Hey, this is something I'm working on. I don't know when it's going to happen, but would you be interested? Because I also see the kind of speakers that you're bringing to the table.

37:59 I know they're the right speakers for what I'm trying to accomplish as well, right? Marc Ronick: Yeah. Annika Jackson: So then that's Wanted to come back because I am all have different things going on in our lives, and we have to make choices about what we can We don't have time for, and this was really intentional to say. I mean, I'm going to this conference, I'm supposed to go to a conference next week. I'm skipping it. It's a big AI conference, but I'm skipping it to just have the time to work, so that I have time to really focus and be there and be fully present at Empowered Podcasting. And then I'm coming home and I'm in Canada. So you know, we make choices about what we go to, and this is definitely one that I'm like.

38:41 This is a yes, and y'all created that, right? And I do feel like, I mean, when I'm in a platform like this, it's easy for me to talk. When I'm teaching, it's easy for me to talk, but I'm actually pretty like shy in person. I don't really talk unless I have something to share most of the time, and so it can be uncomfortable, and it's even uncomfortable because it does from like speaking or teaching. I need to be alone and have that time, right? So it's hard for me to even go and approach people at a conference. But so I didn't do as much of that last year as I would like to. So that's part of one of my goals too this year is to go up to people that I haven't had conversations with and figure out what we can do together. It's a lot easier when you're hiding behind your screen. Well, and I'll also give you a little bit of leeway as well because if I'm not mistaken, you were a little under the weather last year.

39:35 Oh yeah, Jason: yeah. So okay, we're expecting you at full form this year. Okay, no, I'm with you. That's one of my favorite elements-not just EPC, but all events. You get to talk to real people. You get to have those You get to discover new opportunities that you may have never thought were possible or never thought existed. And this is my segue into something, Annika, that you and I have been talking. About a lot behind the scenes, it's the non-people, it's the spam bots, it's this epidemic in I'm doing it for a reason because I want to. If there's any way to stop this, I want to find the way.

40:16 And Anika, I know you and I because I discovered something and this is why I want people to about. So, just to give a brief backstory, you've probably been approached at some point if you are a podcaster on LinkedIn, especially, but it's on all the other platforms as well. But it's these fake bots from foreign countries that want to blow up your podcast. They are podcast promoters. They can get you top ranking on iTunes. Is the one they always say first, which is hilarious because it's Apple Podcasts now. But still, across the board, they want to make you the best podcaster in the world, and they have their ways of doing. And it's all bullshit.

41:00 It's all fake. It's all nonsense. And if you are to succumb to the scam, there are some bad things that can happen. They could hijack your show. They could hold you up for ransom if you don't want to pay them anymore. And this is why I feel podcasters need to be aware of it. And it's probably why I scream so loudly from the mountaintops that you can't have all of your focus on download numbers, or it will mess with your mind. But in your case, Annika, as we were talking about this, we had had some conversations, and one day I got one of those promotions that came over, and I always look to see just to double check to make sure they're fake. And there are ways that you can tell that, and I don't want to get into all the details today. But I looked at this one, and they had your podcast listed as an employer, which I had never seen before. And now you had told me that you So how did you? How did this happen?

41:52 What do we do to stop this? Annika Jackson: And that's such a good question because, well, first of all, one of the conversations that you had was somebody was using my name and saying, "Oh, we promoted this podcast, and like Jason: that's right, they did. Annika Jackson: Don't know who this person is, like, and that's happened many times. I think there was there been a couple times when I've tested because, again, I full transparency, I will try everything so that I can tell people the positives and the negatives, and this is clearly a negative, and I think there was somebody I tried out a few years back and was like for a month trial, and I was like, And they were still using my In fact, I think had my podcast on their website, and I'm like, no. And then on LinkedIn, you told me somebody had listed my podcast.

42:40 I'm like, I've never heard of this person. I go through all my emails. I go through everything. I'm like, I can literally have not ever had a conversation, and and then I found on my LinkedIn profile that there were three people who listed my podcast who I'd never heard about, who I didn't know, who I've never used. I do think there are bots, and I think there are some people who are just trying to make money wherever they live. Right. I do think that some of them-not the ones who are spamming us-but there are people who are actual promoters who know how to properly advertise your podcast. who who've gotten really big, advertising. I do think advertising has to be part of the mix, but I also think that a lot of these people are doing it the wrong way.

43:28 Case in point, one of the people who I let test like Apple for it was a half month, and then I found out they're using an outdated iTunes or Apple Podcasts account, and only X amount of you know however many IP addresses were supposedly downloading, and smaller podcasts. But because I have the sandbox, right, I get to just experiment with them until I get to move on. But I was able to directly go, yeah, this is a real person, but they are using completely fake ways. try to increase numbers, and Like, do I like numbers? Do I like the fact that your brand amplified is a bigger podcast for you know, like us the smaller podcasters out there?

44:10 Yes, but am I going to use that? No, I'm going to use. There are so many other methods you can do it the correct way. So it is an epidemic, constantly It's a big problem. There are other big problems as well. Like there are also the kinds of the software ones that right that put out spam messages to get you to want like to guest requests. Because Rich, I know we were talking about this on your LinkedIn. issues, I think fundamentally people misusing things. And there are a lot of podcasters who will try these out, and they're not going to get success. And it's I feel like it's almost like getting shadow banned right on social media.

44:57 Like you use these kind of. Farms or whatever to get likes or follows or whatever on social media, you get shadow banned. Same things, I think, going to start happening for podcasters. Jason: I can see it, and I'm Mark and I have talked about it on the side as well. Mark's Mark made a great point. The more you interact with them, the more they seem to more of them pop up. I did a whole episode about how do we eradicate this problem, and it doubled the number that I got. Even had a couple of the bots reach out and compliment me on how great the episode was. Like Annika Jackson: no way. Jason: Oh yeah, yeah. Like that. This was incredibly insightful content. Thank you for sharing it. I'm like Jesus. We can't win here. But again, like I think one one thing that I've noticed, and again, I don't know if there's any scientific proof behind this, but something I've noticed is if you have a person that you are connected to who has friended or connected with one of these bots, and they comment on something you posted regarding a podcast, it triggers something very similar. It'll obviously it just looks like something ChatGPT created, but it's something that it mirrors what the person that you are also mutually connected with said. So the lesson is: don't connect with them, regardless of what they're telling you.

46:15 I feel bad for the real promoters, like you said, Annika, because these bots have scorched the earth for their efforts. It's so hard for them to actually do their job because they are probably lumped in with all of this nonsense. Annika Jackson: And you know, this isn't just for podcasters, but it's such a big issue. I have hundreds of LinkedIn networking requests I can't even I'm like, is this a real person? Is this a fake person? Are they going to try to sell me something? I don't mind adding people that I think I can learn from, but I don't want to just add people for the numbers, right? To have another follower or connection on LinkedIn, and I response or the first you know to sell me something. So this is a huge epidemic.

47:02 You're absolutely correct, and I, you come up with ways beyond just ignoring them all to combat. Please share. You can make a lot of money. Yeah, Jason: I'm waiting for the have a little bit of time. I have an idea that I will roll out. I'd like to be able to just go to LinkedIn and say, "Look at this. This is tangible proof that hijack people's shows, and it's not fair, especially to the honest creator that may not downloads are important in their rely on rely on it as the be all end all, or fall prey to these traps that could potentially damage your show, get you shadow banned. Who knows what could happen?

47:42 But it's terrible that this is something that continues to persist. Annika Jackson: I will tell the audience this: the better thing for me is always when I have a guest who comes on, who says, "I've been listening to your show. I'm really, you know, I'm enjoying it, and I'm so excited to be a guest. That is so much more valuable to me because I know they're going to share the episode. I know they're going to, if they have somebody in their network, I should meet. They're going to connect us. I want that. I want the authentic But I love it. Marc Ronick: I love the word. I love the word. I just know that word can be a trigger word for a lot of people because it can be overused, but yeah, absolutely.

48:23 There's no better word than authentic, and I agree with you. every day of the week than the Jason: Well, one bot at a time, they are getting blocked and reported from my account, so I follow suit. Well, boys, before we wrap up, Anika, thank you so much for taking the time to join us today. It's been a pleasure having you at the event, getting to know you over these past several years that you and I have been friends, and I'm looking forward to seeing you in Charlotte as our Mark and Rich. I'm sure Annika Jackson: this is really fun conversation. Thank you. You asked great questions. I love talking about and getting wonky about podcasting and you know academics and all that stuff. So anytime I have a chance to talk about that, I will.

49:04 Jason: Good. Well, we'll bring you back more in the future, and I'm sure these conversations are going to continue off the mic. Rich, you're chomping at the bit. Bring us home, my friend. Rich: Speaking of some of our Podfest, Multimedia Expo, cons creator con happening next year in Dallas Fort Worth area. We'll be going there. They're going to be coming to us. We're going to be going to them to support them. Also shouting out Pod Glue, Pod News, Pod Page, Earbuds Podcast Alliance, Webby AI. Of course, the podcast morning show and our good friends over at Lifey for making the Lifey journals.

49:47 So make sure you're taking diligent notes, just like Annika. We got a journal for you to put in your best action steps, what you need to take home, and also some fond memories. While you're there, Jason: I want to say one thing, Rich. Did you mention MoPod as a sponsor in that lineup earlier Rich: Yeah, in the beginning, sponsor, Jason: exactly. And I wanted to say in regards to companies that actually do this type of promotion, right? They're one of them. That's an actual legitimate company that does the promotion and gets you the numbers through the resources and the channels that are actually going to help you. So, if this is the game that you're looking to play and you want to enhance your download numbers, look at MoPod. They are a company that can help you do this right. Marc Ronick: Agreed.

50:33 Jason: All right, everybody, out this week's installment of Man, we've only got a few of these left because we'll probably take a little break after the conference, I would imagine. But we're not going on hiatus yet. one and only Simona Costantini. So another fun conversation lined up for you next Wednesday, And I'm assuming we'll be back on Clubhouse then too. Marc Ronick: Yes, absolutely. Jason: All right. Well, on behalf of Marc Ronick, on behalf of Rich Perry, and on behalf of our great guest Annika Jackson, my name is Jason Circon. Thank you for being here.

51:13 We look forward to seeing you next week. And one last time@powerpodcasting.com, get your ticket. EPC Jason 20 will save you 20% on your ticket. And as Marc would say, make it a