428. Why Some Podcasts are Impossible to Stop Listening To

0:04 Good morning podcasting. Morning Chat. Today is Monday, January 5th, 2020, Sixth and Today Obsession Worthy podcast, Normal Gossip and the repeatable storytelling framework behind its bingeable, Trustworthy and Listener Connection podcast. So if you're listening live on Clubhouse, hit the share button, bottom left hand side of the screen and share it. However, Clubhouse lets you. And if you're catching us via podcast chatter, YouTube, please share this with a fellow podcaster. And now give us about 30 seconds and we'll get things rolling. Happy New Year. Good morning again podcasting morning chat. Thank you for being here and again Happy New Year. I am your host Mark Ronick and currently on stage with me. My Co hosts we have Ralph Estep, Dr. Faye, Nick Naulback, Sid Meadows, producer Ashley Feller,

1:36 Jonathan Howard and BC Babbles. It's a full house today and of course, a good morning, an official good morning to Tim. I think I've said good morning to everybody before we got started, but an official good morning to Tim, who's in the audience as well. Before I jump into the heart of today's show and hand the baton to Jonathan, Of course, I will be participating heavily with Jonathan, but I do have a couple things I wanted to share with you before we get started. First, we have a podcasting morning chat anniversary that's coming up. Does anybody here know how long it's been since we started? Since I rebooted?

2:18 Because podcasting morning chat was a thing on Clubhouse for a while and then it went away and then I rebooted it with the help of Pedro. Ashley has a guest. Go ahead, Ashley. My guess is 2021. OK, Ashley says 2021. Anyone else have a guess? OK well Ashley you are a year off. It was 2022. So we've been doing the live Monday through Friday show for almost 4 years and next month it will be 4 years. We became a podcast one year, almost to the day, one year later.

2:59 Meaning we started officially recording these episodes and then putting them out as a podcast. So yeah, pretty significant, pretty crazy. When I think back to the fact that we have done a five day a week podcast for four years. I think that's pretty impressive if you ask me. And by the way, hello to Chris Austin and Abby here in the audience as well. Dr. Did you have something? We are freaking amazing. Yeah, it's pretty impressive. And that makes me feel a lot better about taking a two week break like we just did. I think we provided plenty of content for people to binge on.

3:41 So that's that. And also a reminder that I don't think I've ever really shared with you my Podfest talk. I think I've mentioned that I'll be speaking at Podfest, but I haven't really shared with you anything about it. And if you get my newsletter, it's probably already sitting in your inbox. I'll spoiler alert if you are planning on reading my newsletter. So the talk I'm doing this is really about community. And obviously, I would say that's pretty appropriate considering I just shared that we've had this community going now for four years. The talk really is about how podcasters with small or quote, UN quote, small, right, smaller audiences can build real authority, momentum and opportunities by leading with community first.

4:35 And I'm going to be using myself as the Guinea pig throughout the talk to really show proof, if you will show evidence that even if you have, let's say by the averages, you have a smaller than average sized audience like we do, although I would say ours is probably about the average these days. Still, some may say that's small, but the point is, is you can do really big things with that quote UN quote, small audience and big things can happen for you when you're focusing on building community and stop focusing on getting downloads or streams. It's my belief that if you're focusing on community, those numbers, those analytics will follow. And that's been again, proof here at the podcasting morning chat.

5:26 So if you are going to pod Fest, please consider RSVP ING. It's definitely a bit of a dopamine thing for me. In other words, when I see a new RSVPI, get excited about it. And yes, I do check that, but I'm checking it because I like to see who from our communities is joining. And that's what gets me really pumped up and excited about it. So please consider that. Get the Hoova app, WHOVA. That's what Podfest uses to organize this whole thing and connects all of us attending. So you can find my talk. It's happening next Thursday, I believe, 1:15 PM. And if you just go to the event app and search for me, you'll find it. And then also we're going to have a meet up there. I won't go too far into it right now, but we will have an official Empowered Podcasting podcasting morning chat meet up on January 15th at 5:30 PM at the hotel bar, which is basically the central point of the hotel. So what's going to happen to this show when you're doing podcasts?

6:30 Are you going to be double ending it? Actually, it's something I wanted to talk to you all about afterwards, after the show today. But yeah, no, that's OK. I don't know. That's what I want to talk to you all about. I know it might be tricky for me this year because I've got some hard commitments at Pod Fest in the mornings, so I have to just figure all that out and then figure it all out with the team here. More to come on that, but we will do one way or the other. We will have 5 shows next week and I will figure out a way. If I can't be there for the whole time, I will absolutely be there for a portion of it so that I can share about Pod Fest. Okie doke. I'm going to hand it over to Jonathan.

7:11 We've been doing this Obsession Worthy podcast series for a little while now. Toward the end of 2025, we started doing these more consistently. And Jonathan, maybe before we get into normal Gossip the podcast, maybe you can explain a little bit about what it means when we talk about obsession worthy podcasts. Because admittedly, this was a discussion the team had over break when we were preparing to do this show today. So Jonathan, I'm handing you the baton. Tell us what makes an obsession worthy podcast. Making me go off script. OK. Can you hear? Me. I can hear you well. Awesome. So an obsession worthy podcast in and it's it's a definition for me. It's a podcast that is performing well on podcast charts in general or is something that people are constantly referring to as a podcast that they listen to, that they love that they, you know, are constantly going back to.

8:07 I chose, I think there's like a list of 35 of them. I did this series on the other platform as part of something that I was doing because I'd like to help people create really strong content. So I came up with this series. So I had about 35 of these that we've that I've done already. Yeah, we've got to stop. We got plenty we can do. Yeah. The slide deck is going on 300 slides at this point. So that's kind of what an obsession worthy podcast is. It's a fairly established podcast or something, you know, that's just running to the top of the charts. So the idea is, is that we identify those podcasts and then breakdown why? Why are so obsession worthy? Yep, and find the little things that are part in there that can be clues for us, for our own podcasts, things that we could do for our own podcasts.

8:57 Makes sense. And today's podcast, I know I already revealed it, but go ahead. Yes, today's podcast is normal gossip. So what the concept is on this show is every episode the host will tell a juicy friend of a friend gossip story that's submitted by a listener. So each one is true, allegedly and anonymous and each one is told. One of the one of the keys of this is the host tells it with absolute commitment to the drama like she is a true storyteller and gets really into each of these. She also invites a guest to listen along, react and unpack the social dynamics. And like all the things that are happening in the story, kind of like a bestie would at brunch.

9:39 And that's something. Just keep that in mind. It's like he's dropping on, you know, the craziest group chat but in podcast form. So I had never heard of it. That's just because I probably, yeah, for whatever reason, never heard of it. I did listen. I didn't get all the way through, but I got the majority of the way through and I I was impressed. I like the concept. It really, you know, look, let's face it, a lot of podcasters do say they do a show where it's very conversational and it feels like a couple of friends talking. You know, I have said that about my old show, but like this one defines that. This one really is. It does feel like a couple of friends gossiping and even though you don't know the players in the gossip, the stories that they're telling, they do a good job of hooking you and having a vested interest in what's going to happen in the story.

10:31 So one thing that I think is really important about this is the stories are submitted by listeners. So the audience of this podcast are Co creating this podcast with them, which means that they're not just community, they're active players in this podcast because they're providing the stories. So when you invite that participation, that's going to make your audience feel essential, makes your audience feel essential, not optional. That is a standout strategy. That's a strategy that's going to bring people to the podcast and make people want to come back to the podcast because they're involved in it and truly in the development of each story. So, Mark, do we want to play that first clip? Sure. This is just the intro clip, so you know it's the the host introducing the guest and talking a little bit about gossip in general.

11:18 One thing to point out here is noticing how quickly rapport is established between the host and the guest. Here we go. Here's the man, the myth of legend himself. Vincent. Hello. Hey. Thank you so much for joining me. This is my total pleasure. This is the best to be on a podcast with somebody. I already like to talk to you, Joy. I'm so excited to gossip with you. I already know that you're good at gossip because I've heard you gossip before. Wow, I can't even like pretend on this podcast that I don't do that. Well, perfect, because I have to ask you, what's your relationship with gossip? And we love honesty and transparency on this podcast.

12:01 Well, as you just exposed for me, sometimes I do in fact gossip. I do still feel though that and maybe the reason that I do it when I feel empowered and equipped to do so is that generally I am not a good receiver of gossip. I feel like I don't know what it is. Maybe I have like cop energy. Maybe I have like, church boy energy. Whatever it is, people tend not to tell me. Like, just like weird lurid secrets. Which is, of course, the fuel of all of Newcastle. So that one I just wanted to point out, Jonathan, I'll hand it back to you. I like do you notice these are like little things, but I noticed how we learn that these two actually know each other without them spoon feeding the answer to us, without them saying yes, I know him or I know, you know, he makes a like a just a slight reference when he says how cool is it that I get to be on a podcast and talk to somebody I already enjoy talking to.

13:03 That's all we needed. And instantly we could then hear the rapport, hear that they know each other. You know, just the way that she reacts to some of the things he says and how she laughs and giggles, you can tell there's chemistry there. And I think that is an attractor for an audience. Absolutely. And I think throughout the podcast, they have these little things that they do that bring in certain aspects of that make it obsession worthy. And what that is one of them is they they do have this great rapport. And I've listened to other episodes of this podcast and she has a really good rapport with everybody that she brings on as a guest. And that makes it much, much more enjoyable to listen to the podcast.

13:45 But I want to say that this show is what it says it is. It's about gossip. And it's not just any gossip, it's the juiciest gossip on the block that you all want to know about. Honestly. This podcast is eavesdropping, rubbernecking, and talking about what the neighborhood trollop did while her husband was away. We know we're not supposed to, but we're drawn to it. And that is something that I think is really important for us to remember. Gossip connects people. Humans are drawn to gossip because we're drawn to stories. It's not just about being curious, it's about collecting social data. Gossip is how communities actually teach rules without saying the rules. Like, oh, that's what happens when somebody pulls that move.

14:28 It's very natural for us to enjoy gossip when it's something that is human nature. It's going to automatically bring people in. So people love gossip. Already. This podcast has one up on other podcasts because something that they're doing, people already love. And so and I want to go to BC because I saw BC put something in the chat. BC did you want to say anything about this show? Yeah, I mean, look, look, here's and just to Jonathan's point, too. I mean, if gossip wasn't something we all enjoyed on some level, then major programs like Gossip Girl and Bridgeton would not be a thing right now, right? And there was even when Bridgeton became a thing. I don't know if you knew about this mark, but there was also someone who tried to copycat the whistle down, essentially in Charlotte. There was a Charlotte blood whistle down happening when Bridgeton first hit Netflix a couple years ago, so it's something we all have to admit.

15:21 Yes, we love the transfer of information, the hidden network of the goosey of goosey, juicy things that come to the Grapevine. It's just part of who we are. And I want to check in with Ralph. Ralph, I saw your comment in the chat. You want to share here? Yeah, I think the that's cool and all. I agree with you, but we just have to be careful with gossip because it can also destroy relationships for sure. We've got to be cautious about what we're saying when other people aren't around because you know of those things that when you have a true friendship with somebody, you know, if there's somebody that's out gossiping behind your back, that is a great way to destroy relationships. So I'm not trying to poo poo on this podcast by any stretch, but I just think as we talk about gossip and everybody loves gossip, nobody wants to be a victim of it either. Yeah, I'm with you there.

16:02 And I think maybe that's another reason why this show is obsession worthy, because it's a it's safe gossip, right? We can listen to it and not feel like anybody is in jeopardy. Everybody's names in the real stories are protected. It just makes it feel like fun gossip, if you will. Is that fair to say, Jonathan? That's fair to say. And there are two types of gossip. There is the gossip like I mentioned, that is data collecting and and figuring out. And then there is gossip that is negative and meant to tear down a person. They avoid gossip that's negative and is meant to tear down a person. But absolutely, there are two different types of gossip. Yep, for sure. When it comes to gossip and the take away for for that, does your podcast include something that you know we consume content for? So we consume content as humans for education, entertainment, escape, belonging, inspiration, combating emptiness and loneliness and escaping pain.

17:00 So does your podcast meet one of those human needs so that it has a built in reason why people are going to listen to it? Think about what your podcast, you know, why would people listen to your podcast? Is it for education? Is it for entertainment? And if it doesn't have one of those things built in, then maybe looking at how you could accomplish something, add something in like that. So clip 2, there's two things happening in clip 2 and it's a really condensed clip. So I think it's does a really good job of getting these two things in there. But in this clip they're setting up the story that involves 2 helicopter moms and 8th grade fundraiser. So listen carefully. See if you pick up on the two subtle things that they're doing in this particular clip.

17:43 Every year all three classes of 8th graders of Briar would participate in a semester long fundraiser and whichever class wins the fundraiser by raising the most money gets to choose the theme for the annual 8th grade graduation party. The last time Ellen had been through this fundraiser with her oldest daughter had almost killed her. Are you competitive? Do you consider yourself competitive? I'm very competitive and yet I feel that it is. And maybe this goes to my point about like not showing yourself sweat to your kids. I feel that it's usually gauche to express it, especially like in your own career. So I saved my competitiveness for spades. Like if anybody wants to play me in spades, come see me. This clip is doing two things.

18:31 So first of all, who is familiar with drama between parents around a school activity? Me. Yeah, so it's something that's very, very relatable. One thing that this podcast does, and I've listened to other episodes, so I can say pretty reliably it does this, is it brings stories that are completely relatable because when you get somebody to see themselves in your story, that's a surefire way to build connection, and connection builds trust, and trust get people to come back for your podcast over and over and over again. So relatability is key and what you know, like what are some other things that are relatable to people. Think about what your audience really likes, really is doing day-to-day, and what they like to consume and where you can find that connection and that relatability.

19:21 Yeah. And I'll give an example, right? Like last year toward the end of the year, I shared with everybody how I had an interview planned with my favorite content creator, Heather Parody. And we did the whole interview and I forgot to hit record and I shared the frustrations. I shared what happened. And that to me, yes, I'm sharing it because it really happened to me. But ultimately, I also know it's something that anyone here could probably relate to. That's the kind of thing that this podcast, Normal Gossip is doing here. They're finding relatable stories that people can really connect with and say, yeah, I've been there, or yeah, I've seen that happen before. Yeah, now the second thing the clip was doing, and I'm not sure if you heard him say.

20:05 Because he's doesn't like letting your kids see you sweat. So the second thing is he's subtly reminding the listeners that these stories aren't about other people, they're actually about them. So it's about our judgement, our pettiness, our experiences, and what we think of ourselves after they happen to us. Because the stories are anonymous and we're looking, they look to create relatable concepts that we can all see ourselves in that story. But it offers a place for reflection that actually makes the podcast a little bit deeper than, you know, it looks on the surface. But it is a safe space for us to look at our behaviors in situations like the ones that they're seeing and say, I remember when this happened in my life, maybe I should do something a little bit differently next time. So it gives you that space to reflect and on and see yourself in the behaviors that happen in the eighth grade fundraising activity that that's going on.

21:02 I am sure that there's some things that we saw and I don't know who listened to the whole episode, but some things that we saw Ellen do that we could totally relate to or that the other mom did that we would be like, Oh my God, I remember when this person did that to me. So it's a great opportunity for you to just take a look and reflect on your behaviors. Go ahead, Mark. Yeah, well, I was going to say I saw Ralph put something in the chat that I wanted to hear, and also Nick's got something. So let's go to Nick first since we haven't talked to him yet this morning. Good morning, Nick. Happy New Year. Hey, good, good morning and happy New Year. I was about to say Goodyear and happy morning. Well. That works too. I what I think is interesting, yeah, I, I agree. What he was talking about in the clip is just a, a really great way to connect with the audience.

21:48 But he's just the guest on this show. He's just responding to what the host is asking. So I what I think is really interesting is how the host came in with that question after they kind of discussed that point. Rather than saying, oh, have you ever experienced something like this when you were growing up or with your kids? She kind of reframed that question and said, are you competitive? Are you did yourself competitive? He kind of opens it up to a lot broader discussion than just like a typical question answer, response, like I tell the story and what do you think about it kind of thing. Yeah, I'm with you, Nick. I remember noticing that as well. I really like the idea that it's not her just telling the gossip, telling the story and him responding, right.

22:35 She's actually subtly combining an interview along with the the focal point, which is that story, that gossip, and we get to learn about the guest through the story that's being told, even though he has nothing to do with it, right? She's asking questions that brings him in and get allows us as an audience to know him. And I know for me, whenever a host brings in someone that they know, there's something about that that I makes me lean in a little bit more. I'm just curious. I'm more curious to, just to see because I know that they know each other deeply and I know that they might pull some really interesting stories or information that I, I may want to hear.

23:18 And let's go to Ralph real quick. Ralph, you had said something in the chat and I wanted you to share it here too. I do a daily finance show and one of the things that I have found to be the most effective is when I talk about my own mistakes and a lot of people say, wait a minute, your account, you make financial mistakes. Yes, everyday, Sure. It's interesting because that's this episodes when I really lean into something that I fell over my face, stubbed my toe on, that's when I get, you know, audience feedback. And they're like, Ralph, I can't believe you're one just like us. And I think as podcasters, we have to recognize that the people that are listening to us are suffering through the same things we're suffering through. And it's OK to share those things and talk about your triumphs and also talk about those times when you stubbed your toe.

23:59 Talk about the times when you didn't do it perfectly because you're going to build that relationship. And really podcasting comes down to building a relationship with your audience. And that's what this lady's doing here in a perfect way. Yeah, because look, nobody wants, I shouldn't say nobody, right? But I, I don't believe a lot of people will want to be spoken to or spoken at. Sure, they want to learn from us depending on the podcast and what we're talking about. But like, let's use us as an example here. Sure, people are coming to listen to me and you they, but they also want us to sound relatable. They want to know that they're, or I'm just like them. And then I've made the mistakes that either they're making now or that they've made before. They want that human side.

24:44 So I think it's important to shed that idea of perfection, shed that idea of, oh, I have to always look like an authority figure and I can't look like I mess up. In fact, it's the opposite. The more I think you can share when you mess up, the more your audience, your community will connect with you. Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, for for everybody, that relatability is the moments that we fall down and how we get back up. And that's those are the things that people want to see and connect with because those are the things that make us real, Especially going into a world where AI is going to be so constant when it comes to things that we're seeing, the things that make us human are the things that are going to make us stand out. Sharing our stories around those is going to be a great way. I mean, I talked a little bit about storytelling later on in this podcast, but you know, just based on what Ralph was saying, that is how you stand out by telling your stories, connecting with your audience on the real things that actually happened. And Tim in the chat was responding to what I was just saying.

25:50 And I guess in some ways what you're saying, he's saying Bob Ross, the guy on PBS who used to paint all the time, says there are no mistakes, only happy accidents. So yeah. Only happy accidents. That's that's one way you can think about sharing your happy accidents with your audience. And here's the thing, this podcast works because it's not about The Who. It's about the why we care about it. It's about the why. This story is important to us. It's about why this story connects. So it's not about who there is. You don't need a celebrity to have a a killer podcast. Relatability is more important than celebrity so you don't need famous guests to build a hit. This podcast works because of the story and the person that tells the story and how much it mirrors the listeners life.

26:32 If you're rude. I noticed on social media, I just an observation, I don't know what to make of it exactly, but what I did see is that their podcast on Instagram has its own page. They have 10s of thousands of followers. I forget what the number was, but they they have a lot of followers to it. What I found interesting was that the hosts have significant, significantly less followers. And I'm not trying to make this about followers, right? But what I'm noticing is normally what I see a lot of times is the podcaster themselves, their own brand, their own channel on social media usually is the one that has more and the podcast usually has less. The way I see it is what I what I'm seeing is, is that they really work to build that presence and build that community and made it less about the hosts and more about the show.

27:25 I think because I know what you're talking about there and I kind of think that that is because the podcast is what gained the popularity. 1st. Had it been the hosts on social media, they built this audience and then they're like, hey, we're going to start a podcast. I think it would be the other way around, but I think the podcast is actually what kind of put them on the map and people were finding it from the podcast channel. No, I'm with you, Nick. In fact, I think that that's somewhat of what I'll be talking about at Pod Fest too. I'll get him more into that in my Pod Fest talk. But yeah, I'm with you there, Nick. Absolutely. And I think one of the things with this particular podcast that makes the podcast get more followers is because the podcast is about stories. It's not about the hosts, it's about stories. So you're connecting with the stories you're going to find. Want to see the other stories from this podcast? So you're not totally invested in the host, which is fine, but definitely something that plays a little bit of a role. I want to remind everybody about the Empowered Podcasting 2 videos that are now available.

28:28 If podcasting is part of your 2026 goals, this is worth your time. You can now watch the entire Empowered Podcasting 2 conference on demand. It includes 25 plus sessions from people who are actively building, growing and supporting podcasters every day. You'll hear lived experiences, practical strategies and thoughtful conversations around, of course, podcasting, community growth and sustainability. So if you're starting a podcast, or maybe you're recommitting to a podcast, or looking for more clarity and confidence this year, this collection gives you a strong foundation to work from. So you can get all the details at ironicmedia.com/courses slash EPC 2025. Of course, I'll put that in the show notes. Remember that ironic in ironic media spelled IRONICK. So again, it's ironic media.com/courses slash EPC 25. OK Jonathan, now you want clip 3. Today our friend or friend is named Ellen, and Ellen is in her mid to late 40s.

29:40 And maybe one of the most important things to know about Ellen is that she has lived in Manhattan and specifically in the West Village for her entire life. Ellen's vibe is champagne socialist. OK, I understand. Both of Ellen's daughters attended a private K through 12, but she also donated to Bernie Sanders and AOC. She contains multitudes. Are you familiar with this vibe? Ellen is, I mean, a legend in my own mind already. I know her. I see her. What are you seeing? Well, she wears loose clothing. She wears black leather flats. This year she's moved on to the The 2 Great Trends of 2025, Comfortable ballet Flat or the simple Mary Jane.

30:28 She wears statement jewelry rings on top of rings Ellen owns, so she has a ring drawer. You're right. You're right, Vincent. You have perfectly described Ellen. So Ellen is vibe is champagne socialist. That description alone says a lot. But a signature move of this podcast is how seriously they take character development. And they did it with each and every character in this episode. So you can see it, but they you, it's not that you have a vague idea about who these characters are. You can clearly see each of them and you're aware of what makes them different from the others. You know, when it comes to storytelling, this is an important aspect of storytelling. But details and specificity, when you're really specific about things, that builds trust, connection, and obviously obsession.

31:15 The character development that they do here is something that we can take away and say, if I'm telling a story and I need to develop a character, how can I give it so much detail that people can see it in their own eyes? And it didn't take them that long to do that. How do they? I know that they get the stories from a listener, right, But I was constantly scratching my head thinking, how does she have all these details? Like she she's really telling a good story and it's not even her story. And I just can't help but to think the way that I've received listener submissions to different things. I can't imagine that the listener that submitted this story gave her all of those juicy details. So do we know, like do the does she do or does her team do a thorough investigation?

32:02 And if you don't know that's fine, but I'm just curious how she does it. I don't know, but my feeling from listening to a few episodes is that she gets the basics of the story and then she builds out the rest of the story based on what she I think is is feeling the story needs to kind of actually work. I could see because I don't, I see, you know, the basics come from the listeners, but there's no way that all these details come from the listeners, by the way, and I don't. Think we ever said the name of this episode that we're talking about? Did we? You know what? I don't think we did. Do you Do you have it written? Down I can. I'm going to have to search through 15 pages of chicken scratch.

32:44 Yeah, so and while you're doing that, you know what I think is cool about? Does something, wasn't it? Yeah, I think so, Dr. What I think is cool is that I have no problem with her filling in gaps to the story, right? Because for one, that we're not holding her to it. We don't know the players, we don't know the story. Adding those juicy little details really helps push the story along. I think that sometimes some of us shy away like, oh, we when we're telling a story, when we're telling anything to our audience, it's got to be 100% factual. And yes, of course, the main points I believe have to be have to be 100% factual. But I think when you are storytelling, it's OK to add a little something to it to help move it along, make it a little more exciting, as long as you're not hurting the integrity of the story or the person who shared that story with you.

33:38 And the, the title of the episode is demented Little Tango, and it comes from something that the, the guest that was listening said early on in the episode. So he he called the the thing that was going on between the the parents are demented little tango. And I want to point out, you know, because we do talk when we do our evaluation episodes on Thursdays, we talk about titles, right? And we talk about how it's to your advantage to make them search engine optimization friendly, right? But I don't think that applies on these shows. I think once a show has that built in, following that big community that, you know, like this one does, we're now they're out doing live shows where they're doing in person shows now.

34:24 I think you can be you have a little more liberty, a little more freedom with your titles at that point. I think, Ralph, did you have something you wanted to add? I think Mark, what you're, what you're alluding to is pretty big and that is what they're probably having here is people that are referring this show to other people. And once you're at that point, I think you move away from the importance of title. See, in the YouTube generation, we're so focused on titles and thumbnails. But once you've built that community and once people want to share this episode or share the show with other people, I think it really does minimize the value of that title. Agreed. Yeah. And Ralph, you said you asked me in the chat here. So do you think she is is embellishing?

35:06 Yeah, I think that's the best way to put it because I think maybe if she doesn't have all of those extra little details, the story might fall a little flat or just the show might go very quickly. So I think it's important and also it's just important to paint a picture for people, especially when you're doing an audio first, which I believe this is an audio first podcast. Yes, another storytelling tactics, they do really well and that was actually I think key in this particular story is they use one specific absurd detail to anchor the story and they anchored the story with a pop culture item that people might be familiar with. The huge skeleton, that like 10 foot skeleton from Home Depot was the anchor in the story and a focus point for a lot of the action that happened, which created a simple and understandable narrative amidst the chaos.

35:54 Because this story is chaotic. When you're listening to the whole thing, it's chaotic. But when it kind of come, when the action all happens in one place around the 10 foot, you know, skeleton, it creates a little bit of an anchor that really allows people to see, OK, this is what's going on in the story. Here are the important things. I don't need to worry about the other stuff that's going on. Here's where it is. And that clarity and structure makes content bingeable. And then final storytelling tactic is they end with a strong lesson, which I don't want to give it away, but it was neither of the two moms students that won. But it lands, you know, with clean meeting without being preachy.

36:37 And that provides that clean, rewarding story where you feel good about listening to it and it makes you more likely to return. So those are three storytelling tactics that they use in this podcast that I think are really important for us to look at when it comes to our podcast. How can we provide a clean wrap up and make people happy to listen to something and come back again For your podcast, every episode should kind of follow a similar ritual if possible. You can break things up a little bit, but when you follow a ritual in a in a format, it allows people to feel comfortable. So in this podcast, it always starts with the host greeting her guest, introducing the gossip story, and then she builds suspense with, you know, what she's revealing and the reactions of the guest. And then she ends with a moral reflector or the chaos of the whole story.

37:28 So the listeners know the rhythm. And that predictability is comforting, which breeds trust and minge ability. So a recognizable structure is a great brand asset for you to have. I so agree with this Jonathan, and especially the ritual aspect and structure for that matter. I wholeheartedly agree with that. It's something that I learned from different radio heroes and mentors and and listening to radio as well. The whole idea of doing the same certain things on your show at this, even at the same points of the show, it creates this familiarity. It creates this, you know, I almost want to say like it gets to a point where when it becomes your favorite podcast, you really look forward to those rituals.

38:12 And we do some of that here. And in fact, we're planning behind the scenes of really incorporating even more of that. You know, now those whooshes that you hear like with each clip that we're playing, like that's something that eventually people will, for the most part, people will gravitate to, or at least if I took it away after I do this for a little while, if I take it away, people will start to notice, right? It's the same thing. Like if I changed up our theme music, people would notice. And it might bother people if I were just to decide to change that music now, or even the way that I start the show with the music, good morning podcasting, morning chat, you know, all of those little details become something that people just find familiar.

38:54 It's like it's just like a warm blanket to people. Yeah, and the other one thing that I'm going to point out about this and that we do here as well is they're building a fandom around the show. And now these are everyday stories that people are connecting with, but the fan base isn't passive. They have their own theories on the stories. They rank story villains, and they use a lot of the references that they use on the show. Now, we talked about this when we talked about the Kelsey Brothers podcast, that they're they're creating a fandom around it. This is something that they're doing here as well. They've even created their own like microculture around the storytelling style and they're doing lives now and they're doing like there's this whole audience that is truly invested in what this podcast does, you know? Then the community identity is built through the shared language, the participation, the connections to the stories. And that's one of the things that's important. We talked about it earlier, when the audience can see themselves in in your content, they actually do the marketing for you.

39:54 Yeah, thank you, Jonathan. And I just want to quickly big shout out to James Scott, who is in the audience right now, James and OG podcasting morning chat. Community member and when I say OG, if you remember at the top of the show when I was talking about how many years we've been doing this, James was part of that original podcasting morning chat with Sid and several others. So good to see James back here. Good morning to you James. Happy new year and I've been following James on social media lately doing a he's doing a big personal journey for himself, really trying to revamp himself and I'm really excited for you James and cheering you on along the way. So thanks for being here.

40:36 OK with that. Jonathan Floor is yours. Set up for clip four, so the podcast doesn't just leave you in the end with like gossip and nothing else. It does share a lesson. It recaps the main players and it allows us to self reflect on the episode and and see ourselves again in that episode. And that's basically the end of our story. Do you think there are any villains here? Any this tale is is thick with villains and they're villainy Hazel just cheater liar, daughter appropriator. Need I go on? You made me wheeze. Ellen, a hater and a snitch.

41:20 It's true. Although I feel for her because you and your telling and beat her with such a rich humanity and her protagonism really shown through for me. Petty villainry really at the end of the day. But the sons of Patricia obviously I mean literal criminals, true trespassers at the very least. The daughter. The older daughter. What kind of 2 timing? Let that one hang in there. Yeah. So, you know, it wraps up the show for you. It gives you a nice, warm, like, ending to it. And overall, there's a lot of things that we can take away from at podcasts like this.

42:02 One thing is, the tone is their brand. The show's voice is smart, kind and never really wavers too far into the nastiness. There's a good balance of snark with soul, which makes people trust them and their tone. As you listen to more episodes, you'll realize that the tone of the show is almost like a logo to the show. It's something that they it's stamped on there. It feels the same in all the episodes, even though they're talking about different things. They've built emotional safety around a messy topic, so it dives into pettiness and jealousy and judgement, but it never feels cruel. So how can you create a place where things that are messy don't feel cruel? Things that are and things you know, might not normally talk about are things that are comfortable to talk about on your show.

42:51 And then the third thing that really we kind of get from it is it creates a safe chaos and it lets people confront their flaws without feeling attacked. And they come back for more of that in a way that allows them to connect with these people in these in these episodes. So it's really safe. Chaos, I think is a good term for that. But yeah, I mean, that's really some of the obsession where they takeaways. Yeah. Thank you, Jonathan. I think that one of the things that's coming across my mind right now is that I know there are a lot of podcasters that might be listening right now saying, but, you know, I'm not really a storytelling podcast like Sid does, a show where he's interviewing people from the office furniture industry, right?

43:35 But the truth of the matter is, is that Sid can and does share stories along the way during the interview, and his guests share stories along the way. Storytelling is one of the, if not the best ways for human beings to learn. So I want to encourage you, if you're listening right now saying this is all great, but it doesn't apply to me. I would encourage you to rethink that or at least question it and ask yourself, maybe you're not telling enough stories and ask yourself, maybe that's this missing link. Maybe that's the struggle I'm having right now to build my community, to build my audience. I think the storytelling part makes us human and makes us relatable, as we were sharing earlier today on the show. And I would also add that if you are taking yourself out of your podcast in a way that you're not sharing stories, you're not sharing who you are, you're not allowing people to see the human behind the podcast, that's probably one of the reasons why you're having trouble connecting with your audience, because people want to see the human behind the information. Yeah, I think what you're really alluding to, and not alluding to just saying like a shot across the bow is this is the way we battle the AI slop because AI will never be able to tell the stories of what you've gone through in your life. Think about your like, my earliest remembrance is my mom at bedtime reading me bedtime stories. Life is just a collection of story after story after story. That's what binds us together as

45:07 human beings. And that's something that AI will never be able to replace, ever. And that is the secret sauce to this. Agreed. Love that point, Ralph. Thank you for bringing that up. Yeah, it is. It. This is what keeps our podcasts human. And that's not to say you can't use AI to help you along the way, right. You might use AI to help you tell your story better. I wouldn't be surprised if we found out the host of this show that she uses AI to help her fill in some of those details I was asking about earlier, right? And some of that's okay to do, right? But Ralph has got such a great point is that AI is never going to be able to tell the story the way we experienced it. Yeah, that's I was going to say his AI is a great tool. It's kind of like a hammer.

45:51 When you use a hammer correctly, it builds beautiful things. But if you use a, if you use a hammer incorrectly, it destroys things. Yeah. Anything else, Jonathan? I will just say that if you want to see that we're actually obsession worthy podcasts came from, grab those the videos of the podcasting conference because that's where I first talk about obsession worthy podcasts and how to create them. So that is my talk in those in that group of empowered podcasting talks. So that's where this came from. Yeah, way to tie it back. There you go to that. Yeah, that's awesome. Thank you. And I will remind you again that yes, you can get that whole 25 plus video series, including Jonathan's Obsession Worthy podcast talk.

46:34 You can get all of that at ironicmedia.com/courses slash EPC 2025. That will be in the show notes as well. So we're back tomorrow with a new segment, a new series that we haven't really named yet. Does anyone want to help me share really what maybe Ralph, because Ralph, you were I think maybe the catalyst to this idea on what we're going to start doing Tuesdays Sure my. Thought was Tuesdays we're going to talk about the battle scars that each of us have in our podcasting journey. The things we've learned along the way, the things that we could have done differently or should have, should have, could have, would have, ought, as my mom used to say, the things we wish we had known when we got started.

47:15 That's what I think we're going to start looking at on Tuesdays. I don't want to speak for the whole group, but that's kind of what what I was thinking is what did we learn along the way? What were the things that that we wish we had done differently so that we can help the people who are listening every day to to maybe not make those same mistakes or not go into those tangents that we went into? So what you're saying, Ralph, is that we're doing a show tomorrow that will be both educational and very relatable? Amen. Well said, Mark. Yes. OK, So TuneIn tomorrow if you'd like to join us live 7:00 AM Eastern, we are Live Today. We're also live on LinkedIn. I thought I'd try another platform today. So you might have found us today via LinkedIn, but join us wherever suits you live, YouTube, Clubhouse chatter, etcetera. Or of course, you can get the podcast just a couple hours later on your favorite podcast platform and of course at podcasting morning chat.com.

48:10 So until tomorrow, make it a great day everybody take care.