324 - The Truth About Podcast Ads and Why Listeners Skip

0:04 Good morning Podcasting Morning Chat. Today is Tuesday, June 17th, 2025, and today we're diving into the art of podcast ads, from choosing brands your listeners will love, crafting engaging content, to finding that perfect balance between monetization and listener experience. So if you're listening live on Clubhouse, hit the share button, bottom left hand side of the screen and share it. However, Clubhouse lets you. And if you're listening via podcast, please share this episode with a fellow podcaster. And now give us about 30 seconds. We'll get things rolling. Thanks for being here. Good morning again, podcast.

1:21 Good morning chat. Thank you for being here. I am your host Mark Ronick. And here with me on stage we have producer Ashley Feller, Nick Nalback, Dr. Faye, Sid Meadows and Amanda Sharp. And thank you all for giving me the day yesterday. We are officially on our summer schedule, no Mondays, and I very much appreciated the extra time in the morning. I still got up early, still did my morning routine and then got some stuff done which I normally would have had to put off until well after the show ends. So thank you. It is really helpful and helpful to my. I was going to say to my sanity, but that makes it sound very dramatic, but it does give me a little bit of a mental break that I think I really need this summer. I'm, I'll be honest, I, I'm just struggling personally. I feel like I've got a lot and I know I mentioned some of this on Friday, but I, I think I've just bitten off more than I can chew. And so I'm looking for ways to kind of take a breath and regroup before I really genuinely lose my sanity. But I'm doing, doing, doing OK.

2:45 I can't say I'm great and I'm much better now, but it is a step in the right direction and I appreciate the time. So today I decided what we could talk about are ad strategies and podcast advertising in general. Some people hate it, other people like it just as far as it being a successful monetization strategy, some people don't believe it is a good strategy. But I've got to say, in my experience of doing this for years and years now, I've done relatively well with ads. It's never been the kind of steady income or a steady revenue stream to a point where I could rely on it regularly, but it was a nice revenue stream that I know I know I could effectively implement and execute and had a lot of success doing that in my career. I haven't done that really with the podcasting morning chat yet and I'm not quite sure why other than what I just mentioned to you earlier.

3:55 I think I've just stretched myself a bit thin and haven't made it a priority to do it. But I do believe there are ways to incorporate ads from other brands, not just your own ads, but incorporate ads that actually enrich the experience for an audience, that actually is helpful to an audience. If you are strategically aligned with those brands, with those products and services, I think that you can have a lot of success with that and your audience will appreciate it. But I want to know how others feel. Do traditional podcast ads still work or our audiences tuning them out completely? Dr. Go ahead.

4:40 Good morning. I think if we took a poll of the room and asked who here skips ads against who doesn't skip it? Who skips ads? Give me an emoji. So you're saying as listeners, which one of us or how many of us are actually skipping ads when we hear them on a podcast? Right, right. Well, let's get an emoji. A thumbs up will do. Or a thumbs down. Thumbs up. You you do skip. You do skip for a thumbs up. Yeah. Yeah, everybody seems to be saying yes, they skip. And that's the irony of today's subject is that we're talking about optimizing them and being paid with them by them.

5:27 But yet the majority of the people, and I think this is a good representation of the population in general, the majority of the people will skip them. And every Newsday we talk about how ads are up and you know, this pays the most and blah, blah, blah. To be honest, I do not skip them because I'm usually doing something else while while listening to podcasts like washing dishes or something like that and my hands are just not free in order to skip them. But so I I listened through that. And I saw Sid also, I think he had a thumbs down, meaning he doesn't skip ads.

6:08 At least I think that's what it meant. Right, Sid? And I wanted to find out from you. Yeah. Tell me a little bit more about that. Do you, Is that an intention or is that more like Dr. where it's just you're too tied up and you don't have the hands to grab the phone and skip? Morning, everybody. I used to skip ads all the time. Now I don't skip them. And I'm not really sure why I changed that behavior other than usually when I'm listening to a podcast, I am walking, my phone is in my back pocket and I don't really feel like taking it out. And though I don't necessarily remember the name of the products or companies that the people are talking about, it is, you know, nice to hear officially the ones I'm listening to, typically the host is staring about a product that he or she uses personally. And I do like to hear that I have written down the name of some of the products just because I want to go and check them out, right?

7:03 But because my phone's in my back pocket, I just don't feel like taking it out and I'll just go through it. Unless you're Mail Robbins and the 1st 6 minutes of your podcast is nothing but ads and intros. I do skip through a lot of that. Yeah, and I think that's a great point too. I think if you're front loading your podcast with ads, all you're doing is teaching your regular audience how to use the skip button. It's an it's another story if you're doing either and we'll get into it. I hope we'll have time we'll get into host read ads versus recorded ads or ads read by someone other than the host. There's people are going to react differently. And when we think about podcasting and how people consume podcasts, even if they're video podcasts, a lot of times people are like Dr. said, like Sid said, people are doing other activities.

7:55 And I think maybe that's why podcast ads are still pretty effective. And they are right. You know this from how much advertisers are spending. If you look back in, well, last year, the podcast ads spend hit 2.28 billion in 2024, which was up almost 16% the previous year. And it's supposed to get to over 2 1/2 billion by 2026. And I think right now they're predicting, yeah, 2026, two and a half billion. So people are people, meaning businesses are spending money on podcast ads.

8:39 Just to give you a few other, you know, when we were talking about what we were just talking about here, whether or not you're able to to whether you'll skip or not, 46% of weekly listeners say they've purchased a product after hearing a podcast ad. So they've got to be able to hear the ad in order to make the purchase. So that not a lot of not as many people as we think are skipping. 88% of listeners have taken action after hearing a podcast ad. And a couple other things to point out here, 86% of heavy podcast users recall an ad that they just heard over the past week. And that's the highest among all ad supported channels.

9:20 And I could go on and on and on. The statistics say podcast ads not only work, but they work really well. Mark Amanda had her hand. Up. Oh, let's go to Amanda. Before you do that, for those of us that have the update and we come up with the new strategy to raise our hands because we no longer have the hand raise icon. Yeah, that's annoying and I haven't updated yet, partially because I was hearing you guys all complain behind the scenes about it. Yes, we can, and I will leave it to you Sid, while we go to Amanda. If you want to look at the emoji, since I can't pull up the same screen, you can. At this point, you'll give us the emoji of choice for what hand raising will mean moving forward. Amanda, go for it.

10:04 Good morning. Good morning. Just kind of recapping about what we were saying, like do we skip them or not? Like I skipped the ones that seem to be pre recorded. But the ones to your point, I think of being very effective to kind of match your statistics, at least with me as a consumer, are the ones where the podcast hosts themselves will just read it during the podcast and just talk about it a little bit or tie it into their podcast and make it make sense. And those are the ones that I remember. Those are ones that maybe I will go, oh, this sounds interesting and go actually seek out the product or look into. I may not buy it, but I feel like those captivate my attention a lot more than just some pre recorded, you know, message that probably gets rotated out depending on who their sponsors are.

10:53 Have you ever bought anything from a podcast ad? You know, I was trying to think and I don't, I mean, I don't have a lot of extra disposable income, so currently, no. But I tell you, if I had a lot of money, heck yes, I would be. I'd be that person who just keeps buying stuff from QVC, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I would be that person if I had it like. You got it. That's totally new. Oh jeez. Because I don't have all this extra money or I choose to put it into other things that like the store and stuff like that. I think I really would be if I wasn't, you know, limited. OK, that's fair.

11:33 And it's interesting. I'm glad that we got to hear your perspective because look, Amanda, you're doing this in a different way. Not podcasting, but you're promoting your own store and the products that you're selling in your own store on your TikTok channel. Granted, it's not podcasting and it's still the same ballpark, same idea. And yeah, I mean, you're doing it in a very authentic way. And I think that that is what makes a lot of podcast ads work well when we as host can genuinely speak to the product or service, whether it's our own or someone else's, right. There are plenty of products that I would be happy to endorse because I actually use them and like them. And if I think that my audience will too, I'm happy to to do a host read ad.

12:22 I want to go to real quick to the chat first. I saw Adam say, I think if podcast ads can be as fun as Super Bowl, people would skip less and listen to ADS. I agree with you there. I think if ads were more creatively done on podcasts, I think more people would listen. And I think that really that I think that goes to the equivalent of a Super Bowl ad. An entertaining ad is a quote UN quote host read ad. And the only reason I'm hesitating now to say host read, even though that is the proper terminology. I say that because I think the best ads are when the host is just speaking from the heart, when it's really an endorsement, right?

13:07 Sure, they should have the key elements of the ad for that advertiser or for themselves if it's their product. Make sure you're hitting the main points that need to be hit to do a proper promotion. But ultimately, I've seen ads most successful when the host or hosts are just rapping about the thing I used to produce and manage the business of a really large podcast, and I'll give them a plug. I used to probably avoid that, but I won't. Anyway, I have no qualms with them. The Mike O'Mara show, this was my old one of my old radio talk show radio heroes. And one thing that one of many things that they do really well is Mike and his team.

13:52 They'll do 3 or 4. They do about an hour and a half long episode and they do it daily by the way. And what they do is they probably, last I heard it's been a minute. They do 3 or 4 ads per show. And the cool thing is, is that it's just a part of the show. They're they like to goof around. They, they like to talk pop culture, entertainment, all the things. It's like a kind of like a guy talk kind of show. And they do their ads exactly the way they do a segment of their show. It's just them talking about the product, having fun, laughing, even sometimes derailing from the product itself for a minute because they just went off on a tangent.

14:36 But then coming back to IT, people stay for that because it's just, like I said, it's the fabric of the show. It's part of the show and it's really effective. But you have to make sure that the advertiser, if it's not your own product or service, that the advertisers on board with that because there are some out there that really want you to just stick to the script and that's it. And if you don't, then they're not happy, they don't want to pay, etcetera. So you have to make sure you've got a good partnership or an understanding, a good understanding of the partnership. OK. Also in the chat, it looks like Sid and Jonathan are conspiring what emojis to use and have we figured it out? Sid, is it the?

15:18 Is it the pepper? Yes, the pepper. I just did it so you won't see it, but you'll see the pepper come up on my face, right, like you see on Nick. People that have been updated will see Peppers around your face as well. So that's what Jonathan meant by throw emoji. Throw the pepper at Mark. It comes up on my face. Is 1 big one in yours as a little one like Dr. you don't have the update, right, because your Peppers didn't come up on around Mark's head. So, but can I add a comment about the ad, the host red ad for? Yeah, sure. So David Novak, who's the host of How Leaders Lead, which is one of my regular podcasts that I listen to in the second-half of his show. He does a host red ad that I honestly look forward to now it It's an ad for his podcast.

16:06 And what he's doing is he's tying the ad to somewhat of the topic with the guest for the day. And he goes, if you're liking this conversation, then you're really going to like my conversation with Mark Ronik and episode 35. And then he plays a clip of you talking from that episode, and then he adds another comment about it and then says, go back to episode #35 and listen in to this powerful conversation. So it's very organic. I look forward to how he's going to promote an older episode within his catalog. And it is just a really, really great example of how to do an ad, whether it's for you or for your podcast or for a product. Especially the playing of the clip I think is really good. Yeah, and not just playing it right, not just saying, you know, we'll be right back after we play this clip. And you know what I mean?

16:59 They're not just playing the clip and and then moving on. They're actually talking about it, which I think is so key. You know, maybe even it can be a behind the scenes comment too, right? You talk about, hey, this episode from, you know, episode one O 2 where I had my guest, Sid Meadows on. And man, before we started the show, we had a good laugh about X, right. And you're just talk about that. You're humanizing it even more. And then, oh, let me play a clip of from that episode. You play it, come back. Yeah. Go check out episode one O 2 with Sid Meadows. I think you're going to really love it. That's such A, to me, such a more effective way of promoting something, whether it's a clip or you, whether it's a, your own episodes or a product or service.

17:44 Finding a way to be more organic about it, for lack of a better term, instead of just reading an ad, doing going through the motions because an audience picks up on that. OK, I think I saw some Peppers from Jonathan and Nick instead of the hand raising icon. So Jonathan, I'm going to come to you first. Did you want to add anything to this conversation so far? I think for me, and I'm one of those people that shops off of ads all the time on Instagram and on podcasts, I have issues, I think, but storytelling at the very least, if it's not a host read, if it's there has to be a story behind it in some way that's going to grab me and and attract me to the ad and and get me to buy.

18:29 Like I got to have a story always. Agreed. I think just like everything else, right? Everything else we talked about, storytelling is so critical when it comes to keeping your audience's attention and keeping them coming back for more. So yeah, that that goes for an ad as well. Nick, I saw you had your hand up. Go for it. Good morning. Good. Morning, everybody. I agree with Jonathan. I think the story like I usually connect with an ad if the host is talking about their experience with something or how they're actually using it. But even more than that, if you can get away with it, like you said, having your own like your own ad versus.

19:14 What? The sponsor is giving you to me is so much more effective because when it's just like a a boilerplate, clearly they're just reading from a script. To me it, it just feels so impersonal and like they're just trying to hit a quota and like I just, that could have been any ad. Maybe it's relevant to me, maybe it's not. Maybe it's a podcast about business and it's a Blue Apron commercial and it's like it just doesn't, doesn't fit. And when it's more I'll say on the scripted, so to speak, but more kind of intertwined with the episode. Like I, I get the feeling like, OK, this person actually uses the stuff they're talking about it they they worked on a deal, but it's because it's something that they use and they actually think is going to be beneficial.

20:01 Not just I took the first sponsorship deal that came my way and now I'm going to read you this ad. There's a different feeling. I see what you're saying. Yeah, this is where also I think the host bringing the audience in and sharing the experience of the, you know, how they landed the sponsor, what the experience is like with the sponsor. Obviously you need to be careful. You can't maybe be too transparent if say you know the the sponsor, they they've got a difficult person that you're working with. Maybe you don't want to go too far into that, but sharing the experience of finding the sponsors, finding the right sponsors, that whole behind the scene experience, all part of storytelling too.

20:42 But yeah, just it makes you more trustworthy as a host if you're actually sharing more about you, your connection with the sponsor, how you landed the sponsor. I think all that stuff is interesting to an audience. Dan has joined us on stage. Good morning to you, Dan. Did you want to add to this? Good morning. Yes, I want to say I absolutely agree with that. Was it Nick just talked? It was Nick just talking, right? Yeah, with what Nick was just saying. I listened to a podcast occasionally called Order of Man, and he talks about Montana Knife Company, who is clearly a sponsor, but he talks about the knife he's using or the knife that he's carrying and the benefits of that particular model in their promotion of Montana Knife Company.

21:35 And that he also shares about that relationship and it's really well done. It's those ads I do listen to, but typically I ignore ads so I appreciate it. Yeah, thank you. Appreciate you sharing that. It does keep going back to what we're saying that it that we sharing the our experiences making it storytelling, making it entertaining will keep your audience listening to those ads. Absolutely 100%. DRI know you had some other notes that you thought would be important to hit as far as ads go. Let me see. You're probably not making breakfast at this point, right?

22:16 I am back. The other thing I wanted to know, I don't really know that much about programmatic ads and by the way, I hate the word programmatic. So that's just. Why do you hate the word? It looks funny and I don't like it, so OK, so give me the pros and the cons of a programmatic ad. Yeah, sure. So, and by programmatic and actually now that you say it, I don't love saying the word either reading it's OK, but saying it, I don't like saying it. I'm with you. So these are basically the prerecorded ads that are inserted in, whether it's a dynamic ad, meaning it will automatically play either at the beginning, middle or end or you quote UN quote, bake it in where you're adding it in as part of the post production process and it lives in that episode forever unless you manually go and edit it out and replace the ad is that. And is this available through the your hosting or your distribution platform that you've chosen like Libsyn or Captivate or something like that? Yeah, there are some.

23:30 So the podcast hosting platforms like Buzz Sprout, even Spotify for podcasters to A, to a degree, or Spotify for creators, I guess it is now Buzz Sprout, Megaphone, Libsyn, Spreaker. These are platforms that have a pool of programmatic ads that if you're you opt into their program in most cases, then you can start inserting those ads into your podcast a lot of times. Well, like Buzz Sprout, what I really like about Buzz Sprout is you can easily pick and choose. So you'll be presented with potential ads that I guess Buzz Sprout feels could be a good fit for you and your show.

24:14 But you have that final say whether or not you you believe it's a good fit for the show. Sometimes I've come across it where it's a good fit, but I thought that the audio quality was terrible, so I turned down the ad right. So, but ultimately, yes, there are plenty of platforms that do that and there are third party platforms that you can connect with that helps you connect with other advertisers. So for example Podcorn they. Popcorn is the one I would ask about. Yeah, OK. They can. They connect you with brands and I think it's pretty simple the way that they their system works. You can negotiate the sponsorship terms and rates with those advertisers and it's good really for all podcasts of all different sizes.

25:04 It's definitely a popular one. I'm not surprised you knew that one. Advertise Cast is another one. I think. Gumball. I haven't used Gumball, but I've heard Gumball works well. It also offers curated brand partnerships. It has a really nice platform from what I'm told, for managing different ad campaigns and payments and stuff like that. Let's see, Billy has joined, joined us on stage though. Billy, did you want to add anything to this or are you just here for at any point in the conversation you want you may want to add on? Yeah, I just jumped up, man. I got your tax a little bit late and I'm just running some errands. So always, always love to talk about sponsorships and ads and all that fun stuff.

25:46 Awesome. Yeah. I reached out to Billy this morning before the show because I figured he would be a great resource to have here. So thank you, Billy. Thanks for making it. Dr. Did you have something else? Yeah. So let's say I'm on the route. They offer programmatic ads. Hate that word. And would it make sense for me to even go to popcorn or some of these other outside companies? I mean, what does one have over the other? Do you know what I'm saying? Like picking between like one of the three that I just shared. Yeah, or even your platform. Even your distribution platform, Buzz Sprout.

26:27 What if I'm on Buzz Sprout? Why would someone on Buzz Sprout go to one of the three that you just mentioned? Would they? Because Buzz Sprout. So an example is Buzz Sprout. It's not like you have this big menu of options. First of all, I think Buzz Sprout is only Buzz Sprout hosted podcasts, but those are the only ads that you're that I've seen come through a Buzz Sprout platform. So it's other Buzz Sprout hosts have their ads for their podcasts and it's almost like a swap, but you do get paid a little bit for every ad when it plays. So it's not products, it's actual podcasts that are all. On Buzz Sprouts specifically, that's the big difference, yeah. OK.

27:15 But whereas you go to something like Podcorn, there's going to be a lot of different options of a lot of different products and services. I think Nick's got something. Let me check in with Nick. Go for it, Nick. Yeah, see, those are the ads that I will 100% skip every time. Which ones? The podcast ads? Oh, OK. The ones that are that you sign up and they'll pair you up with sponsor and then it's clearly cuts randomly in an episode to a product ad. Like as soon as I hear that it's like completely different voice different. I immediately hit skip and I know that I can usually hit skip once or twice to get past the ad and I will do that every single time. The only way that I would say I might consider sticking around and I I have never put those on my show to know. Like is it always an exact point in the episode that cuts to an ad or do they have kind of control? Like if you say mid roll, is it always going to be at the 15 minute mark for the halfway mark or is it kind of random? Because I could see potentially leading into it. Like if you know that my show got paired up with Empowered Podcasting Conference and I knew that was happening where I could almost build a little bit of a a Segway into that ad before it played.

28:36 I could see a little bit like I can see myself actually listening to it if I know the house is going to lead into it and kind of guide me into it and I know what to expect as soon as it shifts gears and it's like you need to try blue apron because yada, yada, yada. We have the best subscription. Like it's skip instance. To me it's like it's either a host red ads or it's I'm on to the next. I'm with you there Nick. I feel the same way, although even I will say I will skip host red ads often like I'm thinking about. I was listening to one of my favorite podcast, The Pete and Sebastian Show just the other day. And for one, they do like what Sid said earlier with who is it? Mel Robbins?

29:18 They front load a little bit with ads. So I know instantly when I hit play, I'm hitting skip at least two or three times. But they do take breaks and they do have some host read ads and I usually skip them for multiple reasons. One, because I know it's, I know it's an ad And two, a lot of times their audio quality on their ads specifically, it does not come close to the audio quality of their show. Show sounds so much better and it's jarring to me. And I guess maybe that could be as a podcast producer, host Excetera, when I hear bad audio, I just have to skip it drives me nuts. But I think I know that statistically bad audio tends to send people packing. So that's a that's a good point.

30:03 So. The next point, just a second ago, there are some podcasters we talked about this a few weeks ago where they will say they'll do an intro leading into the ad, right? And they'll say just from a word from our sponsor, right, something like that. That's where I see the programmatic ones being put in. What we talked about was because this has happened a couple of times with friend of mine as well as with Mel Robbins, I've noticed on her, she leads up to the ad and come back and join us right after these words from important words for sponsors, whatever. And then there's no ad, right? And so somehow it didn't get inserted in there or something happened and there's no ad there.

30:44 Or maybe it was, you know, a Spotify specific ad and I'm listening on Apple. So there's no ad there. So I think that's one of the problems, if you will, with those inserts that happen. Yeah, I was listening to another podcast, an independent podcast recently and noticed that they do the same thing where it's they'll it's a storytelling podcast and they'll say, and we'll get back to the story right after this break or something along those lines. And there's maybe a second or two pause and then it comes right back. And that that could be the same issues what you're describing. Maybe it's working on some platforms, not others. Is it a problem?

31:27 I think ultimately no, but I think it's especially not a problem if you are doing a storytelling type of podcast. If you say you're taking a break, there is really only a second and then you get back to the story. I still actually think in a storytelling podcast, there's something about that that works because you are resetting for the audience. You're giving them a a bit of a pattern disrupt and then reeling them right back in. I actually think that that can work pretty well. Billy, you had something. Go ahead. Yeah, I wanted to answer or get my thoughts about T Rs question of of course, you know like what's the benefit or what's the differences of of the dynamically inserted from the platform from the hosting company versus pod porn versus going and getting your own sponsors.

32:15 I would just say the easier it is, the the least amount you're going to get paid. If you are just going cool bus route, hit me with an ad. You're getting paid, maybe not even pennies. And then if you're going to popcorn, once again, you have a middle guy, somebody in there is getting a cut. They'll find your own freaking sponsors. They're going to be way better experience for you, for your show. If you have time, If you don't have time and you're just go to growing giant audiences, sure hit the auto button. But otherwise, I would spend a lot of time getting really great sponsorship deals because those are very lucrative from day one. There's no audience needed and well, I'll say a small audience but not the giant audience is not needed for those.

33:03 Yep, and you have the opportunity for the ad to be more effective and create a much more lucrative relationship with a brand versus just a ad that gets slapped on your show that you might not have 0 connection. Nick, can you elaborate a little bit more on that? What? Why would that make it more effective? I mean, we were talking just a little bit ago, like you have flexibility to kind of work with the brand. Like you can kind of explain the the story or how you want to approach the ad and come to an agreement. And it allows for, depending on, I guess the brand you're working with, a little more creative freedom that might land with your audience better than a random ad that just pops up that you have no connection to. Yeah.

33:49 You just take all the creative control out of it when you're just getting a random sponsor slapped on the show. OK, Yeah, that makes sense. And by the way, real quick and then I'm going to keep going to other people here on stage. I did want to say because we were talking about sometimes you don't have a lot of control of the placement of the dynamic ads. You can say mid roll and as as Sid was saying, you know, but does it really play? Can you get it at that 15 minute mark if you're a 30 minute podcast? Some platforms like Buzzprout, the answer is no. There are other platforms. For example, I work, I use B cast for one of my clients and B Cast, you can give it a very specific time code as to when the ads play. I mean, you can get literally say, you know, 21 minutes and 32 seconds and it will play at that mark every time for your episode.

34:43 So, yeah, it's one of those things you have to look into as far as what the platform offers or doesn't offer. Dr. Did you? Was it you that also I saw had something? Billy, do you do? Because you were talking about a relationship with the sponsors. So do you do host read ads or do you do sponsor read ads? What kind of ads do you do? Yeah, when I was doing my fishing show, we did a little bit of both. You know, it's one of those we'll see what the sponsor wants. So like we actually had one sponsor who wanted us to play something that they created and it was very professional and it was great. And then we actually like would commentate on that.

35:24 So it would change up every so often. And that was, you know, pretty, pretty cool opportunity there to, you know, be able to do that. And that's why I, I think back to next point is when you go out there and you, and you really build a business around this thing does when you take somebody's money, you have a business and, and you can go and be creative in those situations, which is what we all want to do. And then you can also, you're content creator. You have this whole ecosystem outside of your video podcast that you can now build on, get creative with, provide other services, opportunities or whatever for your sponsors and, and think that, you know, whatever $100 spot and turn it to a $500 spot every single month if you can, you know, put in the work and, and think of your think of your content for your world and the world and not just the thing and you'll and different products.

36:24 Every platform you advertise on your promote on everything you do is a placement. So that's what I would, you know, double down with what Nick is saying. It's like you have full control. Not just hey, popcorn, what are you going to do for me? Or hey, Buzz Sprout, how are you going to make money off of me today? So Billy, when you say put in the work, can we unpack that? What actually does that mean? What do you do to put in the work? I love this question and Sin is going to love my answer. It's a sales job and we don't like sales, but that's what it is. You want to get someone to give you money, you got to get on the phone, you got to get in their emails in their in their world and you have to build value, whatever that looks like.

37:11 You got to follow up and you have to have a pipeline and I did. So I and just for instance, to, to once again just double down with, with what Nick was saying. This first sponsor I ever signed on to that saltwater fishing show is still, they 1 sponsored 135 episodes that I was on. And now I think they've sponsored even more that since I've left. So they've been on the show since the very beginning and that's just how deep that relationship is. So instead of trying to go find a new customer, because you only have so many spots, in my opinion, to put ads in, those ads get more valuable over time. And so every year you renegotiate that contract and it's a lot easier to get someone to pay you back in 3rd, 4th year than it is to go find someone brand new and try to build the same value that you've already built with your current person.

38:03 Thank you, Billy. Appreciate that. And by the way, Mike in the chat went into Buzz Sprout, I suppose, and he pulled out this quote that says when you enable Buzz Sprout adds or add dynamic content mid roles, we will automatically find the best insertion points in your episodes. But you can review, adjust, delete and add new placements at any time. So thank you Mike for pulling that up. That was something I wasn't aware of. I don't know where you go exactly in Buzz Sprout to do that, but if they say you can, I believe it and I'm just going to have to go in and dig a little deeper. So thank you for that tip. I appreciate it.

38:43 DRI know you had other questions that coming into this topic today. Did you want to ask any others you could ask me from based on my experience both helping my clients and my experience running ads on my own podcasts and also anybody else in the room can answer the questions as well? Yeah. So have podcast ads reached their absolute peak, or can they still be effective and engage an audience? I think a lot of this has to do with, you know, my point of reference on this is Conan. Conan will take one of his sponsors and just put him through the wringer.

39:27 And I'm sure they love it because he goes on and on and once he gets on a riff, you know, he'll just ride that out and milk it for all it's worth. So that's my point of reference. That's not a good point of reference to have because it's not the norm. So have podcast reached their peak when you talk about normal, I mean normal peak? Or can they still be effective and engage in audience? Well, I mean, I think the numbers that I shared earlier definitely prove some of that they it. It's still very effective and the predictions are it's going to continue to go up as far as the dollar spent by podcast advertisers. So I, you know, sure, things could change like the economy being a little bit spotty, putting it lightly, that could always change things for advertisers. But as of now, I mean, the way that it's working on podcasts, it's working so well that I don't see it going anywhere. I want to see more podcasters promoting their own stuff or coming up with their own products or services that they can sell.

40:38 I think that is a, a, a lost opportunity. I think there are some that get it and are doing it, but I think there are more that still think the only ads on their podcast are other products and services not their own. Right. When I get a new client, that's usually the first thing they talk about is sponsors. And I have to tell them. Sponsors are usually at the bottom of my list. I really want you to develop something that you can sell that you, you know, you're your own sponsor. But also we've talked a lot. Everything we've talked about is kind of surrounding the audio version. What about YouTube advertising on YouTube? Now I will say I am my cursor is on that skip button when I first open up a video.

41:25 It is so quickly on that skip button but it's not even funny. I kind of even gamify it to see how fast I can hit skip. I've gamified it even more Dr. by I just recently decided to do YouTube Premium and boy, what a what a blessing that is. Oh. You have gamified it even more. Yeah, so now I'm literally, I don't have to hit the skip button. I'm not getting ads. The only ads I'm getting are the ones that the hosts are doing that are part of their shows, their channel. Yes, I'm a geek and I like to watch breakdowns of Star Wars movies, TV shows, Marvel movies, TV shows. And there are some of those, those breakdowns I watch where the host will break and you won't even realize they're taking a break and all of a sudden, oh wait, they're actually doing an ad now. They'll just quietly slip it in there. And I respect that.

42:20 And again, just like podcast ads, I tend to listen to those. But I also think there's a proper length, and I think sometimes those can be long and drawn out, so I will eventually end up skipping. Yeah, I was going to point out that when I do skip on YouTube ads, it my hands are free, I'm watching the screen, my hand is on that mouse and you know, completely opposite. When I'm listening to something, I'm usually driving or washing dishes or doing something with my hands that I can't get to the skip button. I guess that says that if my hands were free during during listening to audio that I'm I might be inclined to skip so.

43:04 OK, that's fair. Let's check in with Sid. Go ahead, Sid. So to answer DRS question, I do not think that I'd cast ads have reached its peak. I think they're still an amazing opportunity. And I think there are two things here. What's reached its peak is the CPM rates for independent broadcasters is an ineffective sales strategy and we need to look at other ways to be compensated to solid CPM rates. I also think that the CPM rates have reached their peak and I also think that we can't compare advertising to shows like Conan, Joe Rogan or anybody else to what independent pad casters are. So if you want to get an example of we need to do how to do it, listen to independent shows and not these really big shows that are making the kudos of money off of their advertiser. That's not the right benchmark in my opinion. I agree and disagree because I think we can learn a lot about effectively producing or putting out an ad, right? I don't know why I can't find the right word here, but you know, it's there are some of the top podcasters out there. I would say yes, pay attention to how they're doing host, read ads and learn a little bit about what they're doing. Why?

44:27 You know, if it's keeping your attention, why do you think it keeps your attention? Learn from them in that way. I think where you can't compare is maybe the types of ads that they're running or the brands that they're are they're promoting. Maybe those big name brands aren't going to be interested in a smaller podcast in some cases and others maybe they are. But to Sid's point, I agree with you. The CPM model, that means basically you are putting a price on every 1000 listeners of your podcast and there are a lot of small podcasts out there that aren't getting 1000 downloads per episode, which makes it very challenging to price out in using that model.

45:11 I even back several years ago with the Mark and Lowell show, that was really the only model back then there, there weren't a lot of models, but I still would not fudge the number. But I would not accept ads that were, you know, say 25 bucks, 10 bucks per thousand. I would, I would just Jack up that number because I knew that even if my audience was smaller, they did grow over time. But even when the audience was smaller, I knew that they were responsive because they had purchased stuff that I put out there. They had purchased stuff that other advertisers promoted on my show. So I knew that there was more value than just sheer numbers. And it was really do they act on the things that we talked about and promote?

46:04 And the answer was a profound yes, they did. And it was effective. We would have advertisers from companies. Both I think that I'm going to name are no longer in existence. I think. Is pro ProFlowers still around? I don't know if ProFlowers is still around. ProFlowers was one and the other was FanDuel, which they that that's basically the same kind of company as Draft Sharks. If anybody's is that what the name is? Draft Sharks? Is it Draft Sharks? I can't remember, but basically a fantasy football slash betting website, fantasy sports slash betting website, they, they spent a ton of money on us and we didn't use that traditional CPM model.

46:47 So yeah, I I just don't think that that model works for podcasting in most cases. OK. I would just lastly say here, this goes all comes down to if you're going to do any kind of ads for anybody else or really even for yourself. It does all come back down to what we always talk about is knowing your audience. If if you don't know really who your audience is, if you're just taking a wild guess and you're trying to get people to advertise, it could be challenging for you. The more we know about the audience, the better we can serve them. And really then content, I should say, really then ads become content because if we can find the right matches, we're going to keep their attention even through the ads. I think a lot of us are skipping those ads because they're irrelevant to us.

47:38 They're not something that's top of mind while we're listening to that podcast. They're it's, we're, they're talking about something that we're just not interested in. But if they're, if it's a business podcast and you're talking to entrepreneurs and you're doing ads on a, let's say a QuickBooks alternative that's cheaper, just as robust excetera, that audience might stay and want to listen to that ad. So you got to know who your audience is. So like for my Mark and Lowell show, when we were heavily pursuing advertisers, we knew we had a Gen. X audience. We knew it was 65% male. We knew the average household income based on surveys that we had put out before for our audience, household incomes with $75,000 or more.

48:28 And this was information that's not just important for our advertisers to know, but again, important for us to know so that we could decide is this going to be a good fit. We did not take just anybody. And the only times that I'd say we would take somebody that we weren't sure of as far as is it an exact match with our target audience was when they were products or services that we were personally interested in. Because often times when we showed that we were interested in an app, for example, then we would talk about the app and then our audience would go and get the app. And then they ended up talking to us about the app and it would become content on our show. The discussion of the app itself. I think just on a really important point that needs to be said, make sure you know your audience and you are aligned with that sponsor.

49:23 Ask them who their target audience is. And as hard as it may be, if it's not a match, you got to be OK with parting ways and, and letting them know, yeah, this isn't going to work for you, my audience. This is not something my audience is interested in. We, I could take your money, but I don't think it's going to be a good investment. Well, I think this this is a good place to stop. A quick programming note, Thursday is Juneteenth, so we are going to take the day off in honor of, and let me make sure. Yeah, it is Thursday. Yes, Thursday is Juneteenth, so we're going to take that day off. I know that feels a little weird in our schedule since we are doing Mondays off these days, but so be it. We want to respect and honor that day. So we'll we are back tomorrow, 7:00 AM Eastern, covering all the news and headlines around the world of podcasting. And then Thursday we'll be off.

50:16 And then we'll be back Friday to wrap up the week. So please mark your calendars. Please be here on Friday as well. Even though we're taken Thursday off, we will be back here sharing our wins from the week and also talking all things podcasting. So until tomorrow, make it a great day everybody take care.