358-What Camp Footprint Taught Me About Podcasting

0:05 Good morning podcasting morning chat. Today is Tuesday, August 26th, 2025, and today the mic turns my way as I unpack how volunteering at Camp Footprint reshaped my approach to podcasting with fresh takes on presence, community building, and showing up with the authenticity. So if you're listening live on Clubhouse, hit the share button, bottom left hand side of the screen and share it. However, Clubhouse lets you. And if you're listening via podcast, please share this episode with a fellow podcaster. And now give us about 30 seconds and we'll get things rolling. Thanks for being here. Good morning again, podcasting, Morning chat. Thanks so much for being here.

1:24 Welcome back. I am your host Mark Ronic and here on stage with me we have producer Ashley Feller, Nick Naulback, Dr. Fey, Jonathan Howard, Sid Meadows and also Chris Baglio has joined us as well. I'll explain why Chris is up here already on stage in a moment. First, thank you for allowing me to take. I was just talking to YouTube Live 'cause I go live first there before we go live here and I was saying this has been, I believe 19 days since I've been here with you. As some of you know, I part of the reason was I took a little over a week off to from work from life to go volunteer at a summer camp, an overnight camp for kids with the disability CMT Charcot Marie tooth disease.

2:22 And that's actually I know DRI know you had said while I was out in my absence that this is something I've done yearly and it's actually not. This was the first time that I've done this. So I just first let me just make sure. Can you hear me OK? We can hear you, Mark. Oh, OK, I am confused but DRI can't hear you for some reason, but that the fact that I could hear Ashley makes me feel better. Ashley, can you come on, Mike, real quick? Absolutely. Good morning. OK, Dr., I'm going to try you once more. Dr. we can't hear you. I'm not even seeing your little profile light up when you talk here on Clubhouse. You may want to leave and come back because Dr. has a whole bunch of questions prepared for me, I believe, about my trip.

3:06 So we need to figure out what's going on with Dr. Anyway, so I spent a week at this camp and I got to tell you, it really was. If you saw my Facebook post, if you saw my newsletter that came out this past week, this was a really big life changing experience for me. And 1st, I should say just a little bit about Camp Footprint just to set it up and then we'll come back to the whole experience in a moment. But it is a place where kids and actually adults too with CMT arrive. And as I said in the Facebook post, immediately feel proud, free and deeply connected.

3:46 I wish I could just transport you there to really feel what it feels like to be there. But from the moment it begins, you see these kids instantly transform. Everyone feels like they belong. Nobody's worried about what others think about them and their disability. Everyone celebrated. And the thing that really blows me away is I heard several times from counselors, from campers, those that have CMT, that they say how grateful they are to actually have CMT because without it, they probably wouldn't have found each other. They wouldn't have had this particular community. And there's a lot more to the to it to unpack. So we will do that first.

4:32 Let me check in with DRDR. Can we hear you now? Let's see. No, we are still not hearing Dr. OK, I will work with Dr. behind the scenes. I want to first check in with Chris Vaglio, long time community member of the podcasting morning chat. In fact, technically longer than me because he was here when this thing first started up and I rebooted it a few years ago. And Chris also the host of Song Swap Showdown. It's been Co Co hosting that show with our friend Amanda Sharp, who joins us regularly here. And I, I'm sure some of you who follow Chris already know about the particular announcement that I'm kind of teasing here, but I wanted Chris to share a little bit here with us as well.

5:23 So, Chris, please share a little bit about what's going on with Song Swap Showdown and good morning to you. Hey, good morning to you too. It's been a hot minute since I've been on, but happy to be back and talk a little bit about what's going on. Yeah, like Mark said, for anybody that follows the show regularly, we have a lot of friends in this room. I'm sure a lot of you have been up to date at least to a point as to what's going on. Released a video the other day too, sort of explaining to our community what's happening. And you know, and this is the topic that's been talked about on this show many times, which was about changes in podcasts and partnerships. So what happened is that we've been doing this show now for over 5 years together. Really started right out of this community. Amanda and I connected through this community, became friends, started creating content together. She was on my podcast at the time and then it turned into Song Swap Showdown because we wanted to do a show together. Wound up starting out on Fireside when that was a thing. You know, we've done the show consistently weekly on Mondays live from 8:00 to 9:00, sometimes 8 to 10. We've gone back and forth between two hours and 1 hours pretty much every week though.

6:40 I mean, it's you know, it doesn't seem like a lot, but it's a lot when you're doing it live a week. We had it down to a formula. We had a good template going so we would cut down on time. But you know, Amanda is to me like she's the gold of the show. My Co host. It works really well because she's not super music savvy and I tend to be more music savvy. So it's it's always was really fun and the music was sort of the point of talking. But the real kind of magic was the two of us, you know, going on back and forth in our personalities and everything. Anyway, so we decided that for the first time ever in the history of the show, we would take the summer off, or at least part of the summer. So we decided to take July off.

7:23 her and I have both had a lot of stuff going on in our lives. 2025 has been a very weird year. A lot has happened all at once, and I feel like I've still been processing this year even as we're winding it down. Amanda got involved in a lot of different things. She has a business as well. her and I both have businesses that we run. She her business, she's poured a lot of time and energy and effort into into getting that off the ground. And part of that has been to be involved in a lot of things going on in her town to help the business district there grow, to make Ida an actual destination. This woman, you guys know Amanda, but she's probably one of the hardest working people and most determined people I've ever met.

8:06 She motivates me. I feed off her energy. So with that being said, we decided to take July off kind of recent or recharge a bit. And we took July. And then as we were getting closer to the end of July, I started saying, hey, you want to set the date for our comeback. Then she asked for a little bit more time off and I said, of course, no problem, Andy, you take as much time as you want. So I started going back on and at least doing live just to sort of reactivate the community and keep everybody engaged. And then I cloud out asked her, you know, if she wanted to continue doing the show, if she was ready to move on, like what did she want to do? And ultimately, she came to the decision that with everything going on, she was going to step back from doing the show. So it wasn't a surprise.

8:53 I expected it to happen. Her and I are on great terms. We love each other, going to ask. About friends. I think that's important to know like it, you know, is because I'm sure that's one thing that people are thinking like, OK, how are Chris and Amanda now that this has happened? We are great. I mean, we honestly, we, we still talk in our chat like weekly. We share a lot of personal stuff with each other still. She's my best friend and I know she's shared that sentiment of me too. I mean, we have become very, very close to each other and you know, and share a lot of personal stuff with each other. So it's, you know, we're more than just Co hosts. We are still friends and, and obviously, you know, and I, she knows this. I mean, this is our show.

9:34 We created this thing together and I, and if she wasn't OK with me continuing on, she would tell me and we talked about it and I said, would you mind if I continued on if I got a new Co host? I wasn't even sure if I was even going to do another Co host. I didn't know if I was even going to continue doing song swap showdown. I was thinking about maybe starting to do stuff on my own. But honestly, I love it better with a Co host. It's just more fun for me as a creator to have someone to bounce off of. So we talked about it and she was like, listen, you pretty much, you know, whatever you want to do is up to you. I'm fine. And I've I've always told her she has an open door, like even if she ever wants to just come on as a one time or whatever, kind of how she, you know, when she comes back on this show every now and then. So we decided, you know, I'm going to keep the show going. And I was supposed to have a debut brand new episode last night.

10:23 And then of course, there was an Internet outage here in my area, which didn't come back on until about ten 11:00 last night. So and I was like, well, maybe I can hotspot it with my phone. Yeah. Trying to hotspot and stream video over the Internet isn't always a viable solution. It was like barely crawling. So I'm like, I forget it. We're just pulling the plug on tonight and let's do it again. We'll just do it tomorrow. So it's actually technically tonight. Yes, tonight debuting a new episode of Song Swap Show on live. We changed the time too, so now we're going to be on instead of doing an 8:00 AM Monday morning show, it's going to be a 7:00 PM Monday evening show is going to be except for this, which is except for this week, it'll be Tuesday at 7:00 AM and maybe next week too because it's a holiday.

11:09 So oh. That's true, yeah. So maybe that's a sign Chris that maybe Tuesdays are are your night. So you do have a new Co host, you're just not revealing who that Co host is yet. I do have a new Co host and yeah, I, I figure I'll leave it for a surprise for anybody that's curious and wants to tune in. I mean, I know Mark, you know who it is already. And, and of course Amanda does too. And a few people close know who it is already. And you know, and listen, it's all fun. We'll give it a try. We'll see how it goes. You know, it's either going to work or it's not. So we're we're excited to get it going again. I mean, listen, it took Amanda and I probably about, I think like 10 episodes before we started fitting into a groove. So I know it's not going to be the same show, so to speak. I mean, it's different energy.

11:49 Amanda's irreplaceable and what Amanda brings is what Amanda brings. Like, it's going to be a different feel for sure, and we'll get into a groove. The format is still the same though, so that's not changing. It's just probably going to be a little different energy I would think just 'cause you know, Amanda's Amanda, there's only one Amanda in this world and Amanda does what Amanda does best and, and which is fine. And my Co host is not looking to be Amanda. Part 2. It's not no. And like you said, I do know and I will say you did you, you'd made a smart move, you found somebody that you have strong chemistry with already. And I think that will help a lot with the transition because that's the big, that's the big challenge for podcasters.

12:34 If you do lose a Co host and you want to bring in another one, or even if you decide not to, it's it changes things for your audience. It's a new landscape, it's a new place. You know, they have to get used to the change and to bring somebody in that you've got that built in chemistry with already helps smooth that over a little bit. Yeah, I mean, if anything, it should be pretty funny. And I think going forward it'll add for some really good humor. And, you know, I think that the fun fact will definitely be there and I think people will get a get a kick out of it. And, you know, I think as we get used to doing the show together in in this way and all that, like more things will, you know, fit into a groove type of thing. You know, it's like being in a band for, you know, when you start playing with a bunch of new musicians or you bring a new member of the band in, like, they bring a lot.

13:20 But like, you know, just trying to get it to sort of work and get that chemistry again. Is it takes time. Like, to your point, Mark, it's somebody I know pretty well already. So. Yeah. Yeah. So it should be fun. I'm looking forward to it. I was kind of like, oh, I can't believe the Internet's out and we can't do this until tomorrow. But hey, it is what it is. It's, you know, it's not like we're, you know, saving lives here. We wish you all the luck in the world. You have our full support. We're going to put a link in the show notes so people can go and check out the new debut then all new look of song swap showdown and by the wayside note for everybody. I did talk to Amanda. She is going to be joining us this Friday to share a little bit about what's next for her because look, I think I think and I'm this is my interpretation. It's not what Amanda told me, but from what I'm hearing from Chris, what I've heard from Amanda, it sounds like she's at least temporarily retiring from podcasting and that's going to likely include the podcasting morning chat as well. But she is going to join us Friday to so we can pick her brain a little bit and hear what she's up to next. And you know where she is really the founder of the original podcasting morning Chat.

14:35 It wouldn't be right not to have her here to share a little bit about what's next. So we're looking forward to that as well. And again, best of luck to Chris with that. I'd like to transition into this experience I had at Camp Footprint. That's the name of the camp I volunteered at. And really, I know some of you may think, well, how is he going to do this? How is he going to thread this needle on a show about podcasting? Well, I mean, I think I've learned a lot about myself through this volunteering. And I think it's changed me. And it's changed a lot of how I believe I'm going to approach podcasting. And in some ways, to be honest with you, I'm not even sure how it's changed me.

15:21 I think that I'm still processing and all I can tell you from the start here is that something's going to be different. Something is going to change, whether it's specific to this show, specific to my business, specific to the Empowered Podcasting Conference or and all of the above. I still haven't figured it all out yet, but there will be changes and there is a lot I have figured out. So Dr. has prepared some questions and where we've got all these people on stage who Alex Baelish has joined us, Jeff McMahon has joined us as well. And everybody and anybody is welcome to ask any questions along the way about my experience.

16:03 This is not just a solo interview for Dr. but I know Dr. has some questions for me to help keep the conversation going. First, let's make sure DRS Mic is working now. Dr. Good morning. Can you or oh, wait, it's 718, you're cooking and we still don't hear Dr. Darn it, this is going to make things a little interesting. Dr. We still can't hear you. Ashley, I know you have some of the questions as well, or some of your own, maybe even. Would you be open to kicking us off while Dr. tries to figure out her tech issue? Should we start with the ice breaker? Sure. Yeah, let's do that. Why don't and why don't you go ahead and kick it off with the icebreaker. We'll ask the room if anybody wants to share some of their experiences.

16:49 Go ahead. So when was the last time that you experienced something and this can be either a trip, a movie, a lecture, a meeting with someone, etcetera, that had a true impact on you, the kind of impact that has stayed with you till this day? I'll, I'll make my answer short and sweet. And that is just about any music festival that I've ever attended intended. There's something about them. I go there, I love being out with nature, I love being with other creatives. And when I come home, I always feel refreshed. And I imagine that your experience, it can't might have been like that. Yeah, camp was definitely like that. And I love your answer too. And I want to encourage anybody, if you have any experience and you know, Ashley gave you a few different options and it doesn't have to be from that list. You know, mine is doesn't fit in that list, right? Mine was an experience volunteering at a summer camp. Does anybody have anything that they want to share an experience that you really feel like after going through it, it really changed you?

17:50 And if not, I'll let people think about it and we can move on to the first question that Dr. and Ashley had for me. And again, Ashley, I'm going to go to you because at the very least, Dr. is cooking right now and hopefully her tech issues will go away. So why don't you take it away with the first question? Absolutely. And and by the way, I loved your newsletter. I was reading it to myself and you wrote in your newsletter that you didn't come back from camp with any new podcasting tips or any gear reviews, but with something that was even more valuable. So how was that shift in perspective change the way you approach your work from day-to-day now? I was going to just say it's maybe a new daily rule, but it's not really new.

18:37 I think it's just a, A, a refound approach to the rule, which is people 1st. And if I'm taking it a step further, I would say it's actually the rule is people first, then the content and then the analytics. It's not to say that it hasn't been people first before. It's just after going through this experience, it's now people first more than ever. So why do I say this? Because I found that the camp is a relatively small community. I think when you talk about the adults too, they were around 130 people and everybody felt, at least from what I saw, everyone felt seen, everyone felt heard. And it really started with the leadership, which I we'll get into some of that too, because I think leadership is a big key in podcasting as well.

19:34 But it made me recognize that people, no matter how many you have, you got to start with serving the people 1st and building a community first. I guess what I'm getting at here is that the way I want to do this moving forward is each morning I'm planning on and including today setting an intention. Who will I make feel seen today? You know it can be 1 listener, could be one guest, it could be one of my Co hosts. Maybe then I want to send them a short note of voice memo, something that I can let them know that, you know, I felt the connection with them today, not just leaving it on the show and walking away until tomorrow.

20:23 Like really connecting with the people that I feel like either made an impact or were impacted. I talked about the Candyman, which we'll get into. This was a role that I had at camp, but it taught me a lot about creating rituals. So what with the candy man thing? For those of you who haven't heard, this was a a new thing I brought to the camp this year. And granted, it sounds a little creepy when you think about it. Here's a grown man offering candy to adults, but we made it a thing. You, you think of it like the ice cream man, but just change it to candy and it's all free. And instead of a truck, think of a golf cart, because that's basically what I had.

21:08 I had a golf cart cart with a little flatbed behind it with lots of candy loaded in there. And I went around and joined all the different activities and they all, all the kids would line up behind me and ask for, you know, well, ask for the different kinds of candy I had to offer. It was a lot of fun. And we'll, we'll get into it more throughout this thing. But it really showed me that, you know, creating rituals, creating something special is something I really want to add to the show as much as possible. Something playful that really lets people loosen up, invites them in. So I don't know what that is yet. And I do recognize these are some things that I have attempted to do before, right?

21:53 Like, for example, we play games sometimes, sometimes if those of you who remember couple years ago, we used to do the wheel of topics. We haven't done the wheel of topics in a while, right? But that's that's adding a ritual, that's adding something to the show that connects people. So something like that, trying to do that more often and finding the ones that work and really leaning into those. I love that Mark and I love what you said about recognizing how to make everybody feel seen. I think it was Mary Kay Ash that said everyone is walking around with an invisible that sign that says please see me.

22:34 So the fact that you recognize that is is really valuable. And it sounds like you may have even recognized a part of your younger self. You know, you mentioned in your newsletter that you reconnected with little Mark at Camp Footprint. What does keeping that version of yourself look like like in practice with when you're behind the mic? This whole thing about Little Mark, I've, I touched on it in that newsletter and in that Facebook post and I actually came into camp really hoping to reconnect with my inner child, which which I'm calling Little Mark, right? Camp is something that made a huge impact in my life and continued into adulthood way past going to camp. My closest relationships in my life are with people that I went to camp with as a kid.

23:29 Not high school, not college. I mean, sure, I keep up with relationships from those areas of my life, but not the deep, meaningful ones. Those all come from camp, including the woman that I'm married to and my best friend who runs that camp. So camp is important to me. It means a lot to me. I think one of the biggest things that it reminds me of going back after all these years is I don't play enough as a kid. I wish Yvonne was here right now because I think Yvonne would be jumping for joy right now just in the fact that I'm saying I need to play more.

24:09 I've gotten way too serious. I, I see it now that I spent this week away being a kid again. And of course there's a time and a place for being serious. Oh, and then there's Yvonne. Just when I mentioned her, Yvonne, I'm talking about being a kid and playing more. And I'm recognizing that from my experience of volunteering at camp, how much I've stopped doing that and I've incorporated some things. I think these improv classes that I continue to take is part of that play, but I need to do more of it and I want to do more of it no matter what I'm doing. I think that for me, and I see it in others, not everyone, but I see it in others. I think that we put on the professional hats or our podcast host hats and we show up as somebody a little bit different than who we believe we are truly authentically right. We feel like we have to be a certain way sometimes for an audience or for a community, and what I'm finding is that the more I'm actually just being who I am and playing more and having fun and not taking things so seriously all the time, that's what connects me with people.

25:29 I think what I'm going to do again, I'm going to add more playful rituals like I talked about a moment ago, like adding more games, adding more segments that just feel more fun that we can also learn from. But sometimes maybe it's just to have a little fun to help us all loosen up a little bit. So yeah, I hope I've answered your question, but that's what I mean by connecting with little Mark and how I feel like it's going to pour into how I podcast Ashley. Very cool. And I have a question just because I've never had the sleep away camp experience that I know about camp footprint having done a little bit of work with the CMTA and that is, you know, in the way that the actual camp is run. When you get up in the morning, do people kind of like have breakfast and then break off into activities and then everybody kind of comes together in the evening for one big group outing?

26:22 How does it work? Yeah, it's a pretty typical way that a summer camp, overnight camp is run. You wake up for breakfast, everybody does breakfast together at like 8:30, and that goes on for like an hour or so. With this camp, what they do is after breakfast, they all get together in that same dining hall area and they do something called chair dancing. CMT affects your legs and arms, more specifically wrists, fingers, hands and ankles, feet and toes. So they do chair dancing because some of these kids can't stand on their own and they are in a wheelchair and other kids it's just uncomfortable to stand for long periods of time or dance for any period of time.

27:09 So they do this thing called chair dancing and it's choreographed and led by a professional dancer. So it's it's really fun, really cool and a great way to start the day for these kids. And everyone gets back together for lunch and then a couple of activities in the afternoon and then dinner. And then there's always a camp wide activity in the evening time and then everyone goes to bed. That's basically how it's around Ashley. And you know, just because it's an event, there's always something unexpected that happens in the operations, like maybe somebody thinks they ordered something and it doesn't come in. Was there any kind of snafus where in the moment it was like, oh, shoot, where is that thing or why didn't that thing work right? And now it's kind of humorous.

27:54 Anything like that? Great question. I think that at a camp in this one too, you know, there are always moments like that and it's not that big of a stress. I mean, it's it's a concern and then you have a whole team of people and it gets handled pretty quickly. So, you know, I think like the biggest issue was maybe that I can think of off the top of my head was the one day that there's an off camp, off site gathering it. It's at a lake that's nearby, probably 20 minutes away. And there the week was calling for rain that day all week long. It was calling for rain all day long. And so we last minute pivoted and had to switch a lot of things around, you know, from one day to the other.

28:40 So Wednesday became Thursday, Thursday became Wednesday. And of course then there was no rain at all that day. But we were prepared for it and we just rolled with it, which I guess is also a lesson too, right? There's going to always be issues, like we're dealing with an issue right now with Dr. not being able to, not her mic isn't working and you got to roll with it and just find another way to do it and always have some backup plans, which we did in this case. We had Ashley prepared as well. So there you go. That's exactly what we're doing. I encourage anybody who has any questions, please come up and feel free to engage with our conversation. Until then, I'm going to try to pull it back to podcasting.

29:20 You know, community could sometimes feel like a buzzword in podcasting. We hear it all the time. And from your perspective, what differentiates a surface level community from one that's really, really transformative? I've been thinking about that word a lot, community, since I went to this camp. And it's true that it does get thrown around a lot, especially in podcasting. And I think that sometimes it can lose its meaning because we hear it so often. And what I saw at Camp Footprint gave me a clearer picture of what turns a podcast audience into that community. So at camp, it was about showing up for each other and especially for the kids, which, you know, in my opinion this is relates to like an audience, right?

30:10 Kids were cheering each other on, staff was giving their full attention, full presence, everyone taking part, not just consuming what was happening around them, right? That's the shift of that. I want to continue to carry into podcasting and what we do here. And that's what I continue others to do. A surface level community is just a group of people that all listen to the same show, right? If we're relating this to podcasting and a real community is when those that are listening feel like they belong to something and want to engage with each other, not just with me. And we see that happening in this community all the time. People are guesting on each other's shows. People are meeting up in person for the first time. I know Sid met a several people from this community last week at podcast Movement Janae in the audience, we met several people from this community and we go out of our way to do that. We're excited to do that.

31:13 To me, the most valuable thing when creating a community and I'm going to, I'm not going to say an audience. I think that if we go in as podcasters to our podcast with the intention to create a community, to build and grow a community, not an audience, not download numbers, but focusing on the people that are there, that's what successful podcasting is to me. So moving forward, I'm going to be asking myself, whenever I'm doing this show or guesting on another podcast, am I just building an audience or am I creating a space where people actually connect with one another? And I recognize that that latter one that I just mentioned, it takes effort, but to me, that's where real transformation happens is by connecting with the actual people. I'm going to pause for a second because Yvonne is on stage. And I had mentioned Yvonne.

32:06 And not to put you on the spot, Yvonne, but if you wanted to mention and discuss this idea of playing more and getting back in touch with your inner child, by all means, go for it. Hey, Mike. Well, I think you know this is my jam. And. And, and I'm going to say it's because I, I'm looking to change the way that I approach my work. And what you said earlier was you're looking for the way to incorporate this sense of playfulness and everything you're doing that, that is spot on what it is for me as well, because I do find myself grinding, even though the work I do, I'm, I'm a photographer.

32:53 I love doing photo sessions, but there's the other work around it that can feel like a slog. And the same thing with podcasting. The minute I'm have a person with me that I'm interviewing and we hit play, you know, we hit record, it's that that is the fun part. And then there's all the other stuff that has to get done. So this inquiry into play that I'm in is all about, well, how? It's about asking good questions. So if you keep asking yourself how can I make this more playful, then you're giving yourself half a chance to make it more playful because it implies that there is a playful way to do something. Thank you, Yvonne.

33:37 I nail on the head. Yeah, I'm with you there. And there is something about playing while podcasting that I think hits differently, right? We can sit and and spit out information all day long, right? And it'll help some people, right? Again, if we want to build a community, if we want people to keep coming back, I think playing a little bit and being a little more yourself, reconnecting with that inner child in you, it opens up something for a community. If I just pop in and say one more thing, I'm so thankful for this, the timing of this conversation because I'm coming back from being on a long summer break. And as I come back to, OK, I got to get ready for Season 6, I'm starting to feel like the pressure because the summer didn't go the way I planned it to. We had some family health issues, everything, It just was crazy.

34:42 And so the, the time that I thought that I would have to rethink how I wanted to do the podcast, it just evaporated. And now I'm thinking, you know what, I need to approach this with the questions that Mark is asking. How can I put some games into the podcast? Like, what can I do to make it more fun? So I I really appreciate the timing of this conversation. Awesome. I'm glad. I'm glad to hear that, Yvonne, because that probably means there are others like that. And you bring up such a good point too. I think with the summer where we know a lot of podcasters do take a break in the summer, we've had a me, Chris and you now mentioning that.

35:24 And so I think, yeah, I agree with you. I think the timing is perfect. So yeah, thank you for bringing that up. And Janae is on stage as well as we're having this particular conversation around being playing more, being more of your finding more of your inner child, put incorporating more of that into what we do. So Janae, did you want to speak to that? Good morning everyone, good morning. I want to talk about the power of community, right? We you just, you just mentioned, talked about how you were part of this community and what it really means for a community. And just yesterday I interviewed Dan Shinder who's been running drum Talk TV for the past 12 plus years.

36:05 They have about 1.4 million followers on Facebook alone. They reach about 100 million people every single month. It's kind of mind blowing, like their numbers. And he's like, it's not about you going up there and selling the stuff that you're selling. It's about who you know, being who you are. Like people connect with communities because of the passion, not because what you're selling, right? Those are conferences. You go to a sales conference because you're selling something or learning how to sell. But if you think about it, people resonate with commonality. So oh, you like soccer too. Perfect. Let's talk about soccer. And then maybe in that talking about soccer, talking about this one passion, you get to know the person and then you'd be interested in like, Hey, what do you actually do? We talk about soccer all the time, but what you actually do and how can I support?

36:59 So you you build that connection because you find community through these passions and and the way you play. Yeah, well said Janae. Thank you. And I'm going to. But Jeff, do you want to say something? Let me go to you first. Good morning to you, Sir. Good. Morning, Sir. I'm in the music business. Everybody knows this. We're out on tour and one of the significant differences that I experienced on a tour that other people may not experience in their corporate world or the grown up world is that more often than not in the real world, your peers and the people you're working with have similar backgrounds and and they're even the same age.

37:46 Where in my world I might have a 2224 year old guitar tag, but then a 55 year old head of lighting. And we wind up with a very broad scope of people and demographics. But during the course of the day, when we're building a day, we don't have breaks or we don't have the same time off in the middle of the day based on our age or our rank. It just depends on what the job is. So if there's a basketball goal set up backstage, it's not the kids that are doing it. It's not that the older guys are playing chess. It's a couple of the kids and a couple of the older guys are playing ball or playing chess because that's the window.

38:30 And so often I've acknowledged that I have run into so many people that are younger than me that have decided they're older than me based on the fact that the people that they share cubicle with are older. I throw that out there just to kind of remind us that community. Yes, all of those things help reinforce where we want to be. But depending on the community that you're in, it can also create some gravity and pull you back down to the ground because your community thinks, well, we're all 55 and like, well, yeah, but I was skiing yesterday. Today's my birthday. I'm not too old to ski because I had a birthday. Let's just make sure that that inner child is, you know, whatever however you want to phrase that is it's we are fine and free and clear to remain who we want to be, regardless of who's in the community that might be pulling us down or in a different direction.

39:34 You're not too old just because somebody younger than you decided they're older than you, therefore you must be. Yeah, Amen to that. And I got to imagine you're not being a musician, but being around musicians. Most of my life. I always imagine playing music gives you a little bit of that inner child. And I'm curious if if that's the case. We're not, Jeff. And I can totally be wrong on this. It's OK if I am. But I feel like, you know, playing music, I mean, there, that phrase alone has that word playing in it. And so I feel like, yeah, it helps kind of reconnect you with that inner child. What is? Is that a fair statement? I think it's a fair statement.

40:17 I think it's kind of more basic though. I mean, if you go to college and you want to be in personal management, what you do at the entrance level of what you, your career is very different than what you would do as you graduated into higher realms of management. What I do now as a piano player that has played on big things and done big things, I'm better than I was when I was 10, but the actual activity that I'm doing is still reminiscent of what I did when I was 10. It's still sitting down with the piano, it's still not looking at my hands, it's still keeping my fingers bent. It's still the basics of that are the same now. I think the part that you're talking about, the playful part is the camaraderie, the dance with the band members. All of that is true, but I also say that the task in and of itself as a musician, you know, a 60 year old playing the guitar, turn the lights off and his silhouette looks very much like a 26 year old playing the guitar. It's the same task, same instrument. You haven't been promoted away from what you wanted to do from the beginning.

41:30 I have a friend that's a graphic designer and he quit his job because he got promoted and he wasn't doing graphic design anymore. He was overseeing graphic designers and he didn't want to do that. I do think both of those can kind of come into play with what you're describing. Yeah, makes sense. Thank you, Jeff. I want to keep things moving. I know Ashley has a couple other questions for me and Jackie's on stage, so let me check in with Jackie. Did you want to comment on all this part of the conversation? Good morning. So this is my comment to the situation right now. I'm in two different industries, right, but they're both fun industry. So I'm doing hair again and I'm a fitness instructor coach at Orangetheory. What I want to say to this topic is I have been doing hair for 20 years.

42:15 I know my way around a hair of a head of hair, right? I know how to do the squats, whatever we're doing on the TRX straps, you know, running on a treadmill. I know how to do it. OK? That's not what keeps people coming in. That's not what gives me clients in my chair. That's not what keeps people saying, oh, I'm going to take Jackie's class instead of this person's class because. It's the. Little things, right? It's the jokes you throw out there. It's what you say that can connect to people. It's truly just coming from your heart, right? That's what puts you a step above the rest. So as you said earlier, anybody can sit down and spit facts.

42:56 I mean, go on ChatGPT, and anybody can be a master at anything these days, right? But that personality and that heart that you put behind it that's very playful is what's going to keep people connected to you. Because you're connecting them to something that maybe they've lost and still to this day don't really know how to find it, but you're nudging them in that direction. That's all. I love that. Thank you, Jackie. That's what it's all about. Like, and I was saying a little bit of that earlier, but you said it better than I did. And yeah, it's we can have all the answers. We can spit out lots of information on a podcast, but that isn't what's going to keep people engaged and certainly not going to keep them coming back forever, right? Eventually, they need more to connect with you in order in order for you to really build out the community and keep them a part of it.

43:51 Thank you for that, Jackie and and Janae, Yvonne and Jeff, thank you for adding your two cents as well. So let's go back to Ashley. Ashley, did you want to ask another question? Absolutely. And I just wanted to briefly comment on the whole thing about, you know, these activities bringing forth our childlike energy and playing music. And I would say that, yeah, absolutely it is playing music with people, especially like if you're in a jam session, it's like playing catch because you're brought back to like, oh, who's got the ball? Who am I going to pass it to? And when you're passing sellers, you kind of see that light in their eyes when they're anticipating it's their turn and when they're going to give the ball to somebody else.

44:33 So I just wanted to make that parallel. But you also and actually let me cut you off. Real quick and just acknowledge that I I hear that loud and clear it makes so much sense to me and in some ways that's you know, it's a similar way of how we do things here. You know, to me like this is this is like creating music and I am jamming with you. All right, Like Ashley, Jonathan, Sid, Alex, Chris, Dr. everyone on stage. This is a jam and it I think it's why I like to do this. I like collaboration. So I would like bringing people in and bouncing off each other. I just love what you have to say and wanted to acknowledge it. Now I'll hand the mic back to you. Me too.

45:18 It's quite improvisational, especially now, but I wanted to go to this next question that Dr. had created and you saw how creative touches like playing Candyman created culture. What's one small Candyman moment that you would encourage podcasters to experiment with in their show? Yeah, and now I'm sure if you're still listening, you're wondering how the hell are you going to tie this together, Mark? And look, I actually think there is a pretty at least one glaring moment that this does tie together to podcasting. And it was the first time that I drove around as candy, man. I've already described to you how that worked, what that looked like.

46:01 And yes, I was dressed up the part as well. Maybe that will be the cover image today of me in my full get up. If you haven't seen it on Instagram and Facebook, you'll see it maybe today on the podcast website. But yeah, I would say that the first time that I drove around, I played it really safe. I handed out candy, went to an activity, stopped. They all lined up behind me. I did ask them, you know, if you want candy, you got to at least tell me your name because that was my way of trying to learn all of these names, which that was a big challenge in itself and it was fine, but it felt like something was missing to me.

46:44 Here I was dressed up like Willy Wonka and I wasn't really leaning into it. So I decided the next time to push myself and I did. I used ChatGPT to come up with some ideas for me to get the kids more engaged than just giving me their name and hand holding out their hands for candy. So I told them if they wanted extra, they had to do something together. They had to do something fun. I had specific challenges where maybe I told them they had to like sing a line or chorus from their favorite song, or maybe it was a tongue twister. I had different tongue twisters for them. And once I embraced that and started doing that, that's when the magic happened. The kids grouped up.

47:32 They started singing, dancing. Some kids were beatboxing, which I particularly appreciated, and the energy really changed because we were creating moments. And it doesn't matter that these are kids, right? Because how do I put it? It doesn't matter that they're kids. Because I assure you, what I found is even with the adults, when you create something engaging, people will respond. They can't help but to respond. And I will tell you, I had adults playing along as well because they wanted extra candy as well. So it reminded me a lot of podcasting because creating a sense of belonging comes from the playful moments, the moments that are unique to you and your show.

48:23 The space where people feel comfortable being themselves. For me, that means being myself as the host, it means trying out new things on the show, new formats or new ways of involving the community that feel fun and real. So my focus now, it's not just, you know, did I deliver good content, it's did I give people a reason to lean in and feel more connected. I'd say that to me, it's really taking on the role and not just dipping your toe in the water, especially as a new podcast host. I love that. So what's the first thing that you're going to do with this, you know, these new findings to put yourself in that direct? The first thing I'm going to do, well, I think I mentioned it already earlier.

49:15 I think it's really sending that intention every day for the show. Before I start, it's it's about who am I touching, who am I going to and how do I want to make people feel by the end of the show? So in this case, how do I want to make you all feel by the end of this show? I want you to feel empowered. I want you to feel like, yeah, it's to make this podcast successful. It's about building a community. It's not about getting 100,000 downloads. It's about building out the community I have and really connecting with them. For me, that's now success and as far as like seeing the different lessons from camp Footprint and what I got as a podcaster, what I got as an entrepreneur, what I got as a father, a friend, and how I'm going to apply that in the next few years.

50:16 I think I said it at the top of the show. I'm honestly still processing a lot of that. I think I've shared some of the ways that it's shaped me already and some of the lessons that I've learned, but I do feel fundamentally different after this experience. I feel like there's perhaps a bigger calling or purpose out there for me now. And I think that for the longest time I've been fooling myself when it comes to the podcast. I think that I've subconsciously let the numbers define my success. And I say subconsciously because I know I out loud was saying that the numbers don't matter.

50:58 But I think that deep down that's what I was basing success on. I think I've felt that, yeah, to be successful, I need big numbers and I need to be maybe the biggest podcast in podcasting. I think that's it wasn't that I was setting number goals all for the podcast itself as far as like downloads go, but I think I had it in my head that, you know, this in order for this show to be successful, it's got to be the the biggest, the most downloaded or I need to host the largest conference, right? Empowered podcasting. The original vision was to really, you know, make this one of the biggest conferences for podcasting around, but that's not what it's about for me anymore. It's about building the community that shows up to the conference and serving them and making them feel like they belong.

51:51 So now I'm starting to see that success for me is about creating a community with a culture. So whether it's 50 people, 50,000 people, it's about the room that we build together. It's about that feeling that people carry when they leave, the way that folks show up for each other without being asked. And it's about the practices. It's about calling people out by name, sharing our wins like we do every week, inviting play, protecting the space so that people can feel like they can be honest and who they are. So what I plan on doing on the show is really designing it to be a place of belonging.

52:40 I'll invite listeners voices. I'll continue to do that. I'll try a new ritual. I think my commitment will be once a month I'll try something new and see how it goes. And if it goes well, we'll all incorporate it in. I'll lift guests up. When we have guests in my business, I'll center it around relationships and outcomes. And at home, I'll host my family with the same care, being present, playing more, acknowledging them. So success for me is going to be simple. Did someone feel seen today? Did someone take action because of something that we said or we provided and did people connect through this community? If those answers are yes, then that's the win. That's the success for me.

53:32 I thought of this yesterday and I think it sums up what I'm trying to say. The numbers can ride in the back seat while I serve the people in front of me. That's the motto I plan on living by. It's I. I've got it typed out here on my computer monitor. Now to to remind myself of that everyday numbers can ride in the back seat while I serve the people in front of me. There's your intention right there. Absolutely. So thank you all for joining today and for listening a little bit to my experience and my takeaways from my experience. I could go on and on and on about the experience itself, and I don't want to take up any more of your time.

54:16 I'm happy to continue to share down the road as well. And tomorrow is Newsday and tomorrow we're going to hear also from that news. We'll hear from Sid, we'll hear from Janae. Those are two people specifically that were at Podcast Movement. So we'll get a report of their experience at Podcast Movement, The good, the bad, the ugly. I've heard some things about Podcast Movement, lots of great things, lots of great connection. And I heard it, it's changed a lot. We'll talk about that as well and all the other headlines. I want to get into a little bit more of the Taylor Swift interview on the Kelsey Brothers podcast. I think there is a lot we could unpack there. So we might try to do that tomorrow. If not, that might be a show in itself on Thursday. But we've got lots planned for you this week. Come join us any anytime, 7:00 AM Eastern live between 7:00 and 8:00 AM.

55:07 That's when you can join us live. And if you can't, then you can catch the podcast just a couple hours later on your favorite podcast platform. So until tomorrow, make it a great day. Everybody take care.