436. How to Hear Brutal Feedback Without Getting Defensive

0:05 Good morning podcasting morning chat. Today is Thursday, January 15th, 2026, and today, feedback without defensiveness. While I'm at Podfest, Ralphie Step is filling in to lead a practical discussion on how podcasters can ask for feedback that actually helps them improve. So if you're listening live on. Clubhouse hit the share button on the left hand side of the screen and share it. However, Clubhouse lets you and. If you're watching us via podcast, YouTube, LinkedIn, please share this episode with a fellow podcaster. And now give us about 30 seconds and we'll get things rolling. Thanks for being here. Well, good morning everybody.

1:25 I'm Ralph Estep and I'm happy you joined us today. And joining me on stage this morning is producer Ashley Feller, Dr. Faye, Sid Meadows, BC Babbles, Alex Baelish and Jonathan Howard. So they're the ones that are joining me today and I appreciate their support here today. So today what I want to talk about, and what we're going to talk about is if feedback makes your stomach tighten, today's show is for you. Because most of us say we want feedback until it shows up because it shows up messy lot of times it's not gentle, it's not perfectly worded, and in many times it's not time to dwell. And it hits the part of us that's really trying hard. So today isn't about getting tougher. We could probably do a whole show on getting tougher.

2:06 And it's not about pleasing everyone. It's about learning how to hear feedback without spiraling, without getting defensive, and without quitting the very thing you're building. So here's the frame I'd like us to hold on to today. Feedback is information, not a verdict. I think that's so important that we start there. Feedback is information, not a verdict. And your episode is not your identity, it's something you made. So I'm going to start off with a few questions and I would love everybody to participate today. We can talk about wins, mistakes, lessons, and a moment. All right. Well, let's dive right in. Let's start with this question, and I would love everybody to put your answers in and come up on stage. That'd be great. What's the last piece of feedback that actually got under your skin? That's what I want to start with today. What's that one piece of feedback that's got under your skin?

2:53 Alex, go ahead. That sounds like you have a comment there. This is actually funny. When we first started our podcast we got this piece of feedback and it still drives me nuts. We had one episode or two episodes under our belt and the guy just ripped us. Oh, you guys have no chemistry. This, that and the other thing. And at the end of the piece of feedback, he's like, I'll, I'll listen next week or so. It was like the weirdest thing. It was like all negative. And then it was like, nice job. It was just, it made no sense whatsoever. It was a one star and there's no way you can kind of get rid of it. And it's like, I don't care what kind of podcast you have, give the podcast a chance to try to develop because the podcast from the first episode to the 10th episode is probably going to be different. And it really was because we switched who did the opening and we did a lot of different stuff.

3:50 And it was just so funny that it's like people love to be keyboard heroes. So Alex, let me ask you a follow up on that. So what about that hit you the hardest? Was it the tone? Was it the timing? Was it some truth that they put in there? What is it that hit you the hardest in that feedback? It was the timing and we didn't even get a chance to get our sea legs. That was the biggest thing. And then at the end of it, it was like he said all these negative things and it was like good job. And then he gives us a one star. It just made no sense. It still bothers me to this day. It just, I wish I could get rid of it. You really can't get rid of some of these things. Dr. Go ahead. The way that I react to feedback has a lot to do with how it's given, the tone of which it's given. Let me give you an example.

4:40 So for instance, if I this would never happen, by the way, but if I cook something and someone eats it and says, oh, that is nasty. Oh, no, oh, no, no, no, no, that's not going to happen. I'm not going to be taking that lightly. Instead of that's you know what? That's not agreeing with my, with my taste buds. I wonder what's in it. That's not, you know, and then they you start, is there, is there lemon in this? Or, you know, it really depends on how it's given as to how I'm going to react to it. So Dr. what you're really saying is for you, it's about the tone. It's the way that the tone comes across. And as you said that I got to be honest to Dr. just about fell out of my chair laughing because I think it's always giving you feedback.

5:29 You're like, you're going right back at them. But for you, it's all about the tone of voice. And see, that's the hard part about feedback, especially when Alex was talking about somebody put a comment on that. Yeah, it sort of seemed like to me like a little passive aggressive Alex, but the tone when it's flat words is one thing. It's tone when you hear somebody speak is another Dr. But I I think you just nailed that. I think it, it really comes down to the tone and how you how you take that for sure. Yeah. Does anybody else have anything they want to share before we move on to our second question today? And I'll just share this. I know when I first started my first podcast, it's been a couple years ago now, I remember my first piece of feedback. I think it was an Apple review and the guy said just stop talking.

6:13 And you know, it was so and I was so, you know, just getting into it. And I took that and I internalized that so much. And I said, wow, like this person is just out there. And then I realized something. Not everybody is your audience. And I think that's part of what we have to recognize here is that some people are out there, they're going to troll you, that they're not your audience, they're not your people. And you just have to let that kind of stuff slide because if not, it's going to affect you. It's going to make you not not want to go deeper into this and keep going. But there are people out there that want to hear you. Alex, did you have something to say? I just want to follow up. I think a lot depends on how you take it. It depends on where you are in your journey. If I was brand spanking new in the podcast, in my podcast journey and I got someone using that harsh tone in regards to feedback, I'm not sure that I would have pursued it as verbally. Verbally.

7:10 Is that a word as aggressively as I have regarding my podcast journey? PCI saw you wanted to say something. Go ahead. I think we did mention a couple of weeks ago that I did a couple of years ago do something naughty and got me in trouble. But for my show, I've always focused on the idea that crazy things do happen in the workplace. People should know how to navigate those things and I will always die on that hill. Now, the instance where I got in trouble, and admittedly I owned up to the fact that I did not ensure productivity in the conversation, but the feedback that I got when I was pulled into my management's office was being told that focusing on things like work, politics, office gossip, it's unseemly, it's unprofessional, it's distasteful, yadda yadda. And granted, again, while I had owned up to the fact that I did not facilitate the best bit of content in that instance, my issue with this particular feedback? And This is why I don't name names or learn not to name anybody anymore.

8:18 But the fact that this person's second in command was notorious for trying to get a little too cozy for all new female Co work employees while he was engaged, and he had the audacity to talk to me about what was distasteful, unprofessional and unseemly. That rubbed me a bit of the wrong way. I can certainly understand that BC Jonathan, you wanted to make a comment. Just going back to what you had mentioned, not everybody is our audience. And when we start out our podcast, we have to understand that. And because otherwise you're going to get beat up by people there, you're going to get those one star reviews and it's going to make you feel bad about what you're doing.

9:00 And I mean, I always read any reviews and I take it as it is, but I mean, you have to have a little bit of a thick skin if you're going to, if you're going to be putting yourself out there publicly on social media, in a podcast, because there's just mean people out there and you got to know they're just mad because they see something in you that they they wish they had. I think that's so well, said Jonathan. And I think you have to develop a thick skin. You know, my, I remember when this first happened. My wife said to me, she goes Ralph, she said you put yourself out there. She said you have to expect that people are going to come back at you. And I said, you're absolutely right. And you just have to learn to get through those. And I'm going to get to another question here in a few minutes, but there's going to go directly to that. But let's jump right to our second question. And here is 1 I got for you.

9:45 It's when you ask for feedback. And I'm, I'm assuming that everybody at sometimes is asking for feedback. Here's my kick to this. What are you really asking for? Are you asking for feedback on your content, on your delivery or your growth? Because I think it matters and I think that's where we need to have this next piece of the discussion. When you're asking for that, what are you really asking for? I know when I've submitted things out there for feedback, I'm sort of asking for everything I'd like somebody to say to me. Yeah, Ralph, the content was right on point. The delivery. Now, I will share something with everyone here. The delivery for me was a big issue at the front end. I was big time into the teleprompter, big time into the script. And I got some loving advice from people that are like, Ralph, just talk to me. We know you know what you're talking about, but just say it. And you know, that was, was huge, but it hurt a little bit because I had spent so much time putting together these scripts and I, I want to make sure every word was right. And, and even to this day, now I'm sick 3 or 4 years into this, I still revert back to that script. And I, I have a coach that says to me constantly, Ralph, just speak from the heart.

10:47 You know your stuff. So when I asked for feedback, but I would love to hear everybody else's comments on this about feedback. And you know, what are you actually asking for and how does that come across when you when you get it or you don't get it or you know, what are you expecting from that? Let's go to Sid. Good morning, everybody. So I actually did this in a formal way. Some of you might remember I talked about this before where I put a call out to my audience and I asked them to schedule time with me to review the show. And I got 2025 people that, you know, I interviewed on Zune Live. Some of them I knew, some of them I didn't know and had a great opportunity to connect. And one of the questions that I asked them and the questions that I asked were questions that Alex and Filippo had talked about in a webinar that I attended.

11:36 And one of the questions I asked was, that's one thing we can do to improve the show or to make it better for future listeners. It's like new people coming in. And I got some great feedback, including things that I know, like the length of the show said you talk too much, you go too long. You know, 4555 minutes is too long. Try to keep it at 30 minutes, which has been my goal from the beginning. And I suck at that. But I mean, I got some, you know, like looking at other topics when I'm teaching something or when we're going to teach something with my guests. You know, maybe start the episode with today you will learn. I got asked about in person recording. So I mean, I view feedback as a gift. None of the feedback I got in the interviews was like overly negative, but it was all extremely constructive from people who listen to the show on a regular, consistent basis.

12:23 And I've taken all of this and I am incorporating it into the launch of Season 7. DC I'm going to come to you in just a second, Sid, but I wanted to follow up with something you said. When you first decided to go out there and seek feedback. Were you a little bit hesitant? Were you reluctant about doing that? No, I wasn't reluctant about it. When I was reluctant about reluctant, it's not the right word. What I was concerned about was would anybody heed my call? Like would they take action and schedule a call with me there? Would they respond to my e-mail request for feedback on the show? Because the listeners that you know, there's some that I know that listen all the time. I reached out to them directly, you know, where whether e-mail or on LinkedIn. So my concern was, would anybody give me the feedback? That was my concern.

13:11 And I got 25 people, which is great. It's enough of a sampling size to give me information that I was looking for that could inform what it is we wanted to do in Season 7. And Sid, I think that's a good point too. I remember the first time I, I use pod page and pod page has this survey that you can put out. And I remember when I did my first one, my biggest hesitation was, is anybody actually going to, you know, provide feedback to me? But BC go ahead. I saw you had a comment you want to make. I'm always trying to make sure that at the very least in my coming through on the basic promise that I make whenever I open my show, you know, over time, I'm trying to make sure I'm consistent and I'm providing something reliable. And granted, I've gotten feedback from all of my interviewees, which that by itself is really good and I think I know how to hold a conversation really well. But for the target audience that I'm trying to engage, I'm always trying to figure out based on how I frame what the show is supposed to be, how I introduce it based on what I tell you, I want to provide you by the time it's over and by at least hitting that mark.

14:15 And so I'm always willing to look for cues on whether or not there is a pivot that should be made and whether or not there's something lacking. And granted, I don't and I have, I think I'm still waiting for that kind of feedback to happen. But that's my biggest concern. Like, am I at least giving you what I'm telling you my I'm endeavouring to provide? So it's interesting you said that because as I was going through preparing for today's discussion, one of the things that came to mind is when we're doing this feedback question, are we really just asking for reassurance? Are we asking for someone to reassure us that, yes, what we're doing is working? I hear a little bit of that and what Sid said in BC. Am I hearing that and what you're saying to you're looking for that reassurance that the things you're doing are working? I think that's a fairpoint.

15:01 And I think to clarify, it's not in the sense of like telling me that I'm doing good. It's making sure that I'm productive. Am I doing something that is providing the insights I want my audience to have? So yeah, that's definitely what from my perspective, I'm definitely trying to get from any instance of wanting feedback. Awesome. Now does anybody else have anything they want to share here as we talk about feedback and what you're really asking for? If not, I'm going to move on to what I put together our third question today. Anybody else have any comments before we move on to the next one? Did I hear somebody? I think our podcast is a little bit more my podcast is a little bit different because we review shows, so we get feedback all the time, but it's not the feedback that you're talking about right now.

15:44 We use pod page all the time and a separate, you know, my, my, my podcast partner gets killed. She gets killed all the time because of her accent, because of this, because of that, it's really frustrating because I don't even show her half of it. It's just a really a problem. But you just have to take it with a grain of salt. And we asked for feedback, but it's on the show, the topic more than it is anything else. So we're really lucky that way. And Alex, you just set me up for the next question perfectly. So let's get on to the third question I have here. What's the best feedback question you've ever asked or been asked that produce specifics instead of vibes? Because I think it's real easy to go out there and ask for vibes.

16:25 You know, how do you feel about this show? How do you feel about this? How do you feel about that? But would anybody like to share specific questions or specific feedback questions that they've asked that have really been effective for giving information that was useful to you? Alex, did you have any thoughts on that? Because it sounds like you're doing this a lot. Did you want to share anything specific? Feedback, questions you found to be useful? When we do our thing, we'll watch a show and then we do a review on it. But like on Pop page, they're just brutal. And I kind of love and hate this topic. But in terms of specifics, you know, I think there's a bigger issue with our podcast and this is a bigger topic. How do I put this?

17:09 I've talked to a lot of people about this. Women podcasters get criticized more than men podcasters, I think. And it's not fair. I'm not saying it's just the way it is because I'm part of a network and it's kind of a trend and in the network that I'm in. And it's just kind of sad because these women are busting their, they're doing what they need to do and they're they're providing a lot of great value. And I just think the people are just mean. I'm sorry, I'm not really answering the question, Ralph, but. Alex Actually, no, Alex but I think you are because you're leaning into something that I really wanted to stress today. And that's the whole idea is how do you keep from getting defensive because and I'm not criticizing you, Alex, but I feel a little bit defensiveness here from you.

17:53 So you're definitely. Right. Yeah, I'm very defensive about it because we have over 100 more than almost 150,000 downloads. We've been doing this for four years. I'm getting 100 downloads a week and we're not even, we haven't been live for almost over a year and we get a lot of great feedback. I'm not saying, you know, but people are just mean and it's just not warranted. It really bothers me that there's a lot of keyboard heroes out there that are just, they're just jerks. And going back to what VR said, I mean, you know, there's a way to say something negative, but don't have to be don't have to be mean about it.

18:37 And you know, we're trying, you try to change it, you try to tweak it here or there. But just sad because we put a lot of everybody in this room, puts a lot of work into their shows. I mean, people are spending a lot of money, whether it's their own money or it sponsors money. And I'm not expecting to get a Gold Star just for putting a podcast together. But I don't know, it's just a sore subject. No, I think you're absolutely right. And listen, one of the podcasts I do is a religious content podcast. So talk about getting nasty comments, man. I my wife sometimes cringes. She's like, I cannot believe you can withstand that, but I just listen. I I know that those folks are not my audience, but somebody put in the chat here. You know, when you when you put yourself out there, you got to deal with it.

19:18 There's people that give mean feedback and and and Alex, that doesn't meant as a criticism of you. I totally get. It I'm just saying between podcasters, it stinks. I just see one thing if it was warranted, but it's just like, come on, guys. Like really. But again, when you have, when you have enough eyes on you, it happens. I think most of the feedback that we get kind of to Alex's point is through messages. The keyboard warriors are sending us their reviews, they're leaving comments on streams and you got to toughen up a little bit and take it. But to your question, Ralph, I think you read the feedback and then you walk away from it and just sit with it, whether that's a day or an hour or 10 minutes, whatever it is.

20:02 But, you know, try to figure out where it's coming from. And if you feel like that that information and that feedback is something that would help you improve your show even though it was presented in a negative fashion, then look at ways that you can improve that show from the negative feedback. But I do think you got to step away from it. You can't internalize it because the haters are going to hate. The keyboard warriors are going to go to war just because they can. I really wonder if one of those keyboard warriors that's been, you know, on Alex's partner, would that person say the same thing in person? And I likely think the answer to that question is no.

20:43 They would approach it completely differently, likely to be a bit more constructive. So read it, try to understand it, walk away from it, and then take away what what this feedback can be to help you improve your show. Because that's what your goal is, is to improve your show. Jonathan, I'm going to come to you in just a second, but I want to read what Tim put in the chat because I think he is so much on point to this. He says my favorite feedback question. Why do you feel that way? And put that behind most questions. If they don't answer that, they don't look at it. But I think Tim, that is a very good point is, you know, you've got to get them yes or no answers aren't going to work. But why they feel that way. But Jonathan, go ahead. I wanted to. I saw you want to make a comment. A lot of times we ask people, you know, we answer questions for our audience because if one person has that question, then multiple people have that question. And we also need to take that into account when we get reviews.

21:34 It may not, they may not have worded it nicely, but there's at least one other person that feels that way about whatever it is that you did. So look at that and see how you can improve your show. I think that's where we have to look at feedback in all senses. Does it? Can I look at this and can it help me make my show better? If it can, take it. If it can't, OK, but think about what everybody's giving you. Because if one person is saying it, there's multiple people feeling it. I agree with you, Jonathan, and I put down a couple of things that I think would be really useful to ask when you ask for feedback. One of the things is what minute did your attention dip? If you're asking for feedback and the whole point is you want to keep somebody engaged in your program, I think that's a really good feedback question to ask.

22:18 You know, at what point in the show did your attention to, But nothing I said, and I think this one is critical. What promise do you think I was making in the show? Sid kind of alluded to that when Sid said he went back and he started off with the end in mind. And I'm I'm putting words in your mouth, Sid. But I think that that's a really good thing that you can ask for feedback as well. You know, what was the promise you thought I was making when you listened to the 1st 30 seconds or the first minute of my show? And then maybe a follow up question is did I meet your expectation? Did I exceed your expectations? Maybe that makes it remarkable. And then one more question I think is really important. If you could change one thing, what is it? Because that one thing, it's going to make them come out of their shell a little bit and give you feedback. Did anybody want to comment on other questions that they found to be super useful when looking for feedback? I know on pod page, I think it's Tom Webster provided a bunch of questions that the folks at pod page could you and I think they're really good questions.

23:13 But I think these questions you need to pull out, like Tim said, pull out that that why behind that. All right, well, let's move on to our next question. And I think this one kind of alludes to where Alex was going and general feedback and that who gets a vote in your show and who needs to stop getting one. And Alex, as you were talking today, one of the things I almost want to jump to this question because I was thinking, you know what, this is really part of the critical issue. Who gets a vote on your show and who doesn't get one? Because it's real easy when you put out there for feedback. And I've seen podcasters do this. They put things out for feedback and somebody says to them, and Sid, you know, you said that somebody said your your show's too long. And I remember with the first time I put out feedback and I do a 10 minute Daily Show, somebody said, your show's too short.

23:59 And I'm thinking, OK, so I get this feedback and I'm thinking, OK, how do I make my show longer? And somebody said to me, they said, Ralph, well, wait a minute. You know, you're listening to one person and Sid, you mentioned you got 25 pieces of feedback. And I think it's so important to understand who gets a vote. Ultimately, it's still your show, but you need to understand who's giving you feedback. What does that feedback look like and how can you work with that feedback? Does anybody want to, you know, talk about how they've dealt with that? I see. Sid, go ahead. This is a really great question. And for me, I would listen to feedback from the people that I know listen to the show on a regular basis. I'm not sure that I would listen to feedback from someone who'd listened for the first time.

24:42 They're new to me. They don't know me, they don't know the show, they don't know the history. So the people that I know that listen and, and I keep a list of the people that listen and I get this list curated from people that comment on the show, that, that share the show, that reach out to me and send me emails. So I know who my loyal listeners are and, or at least some of them anyway. I don't know all of them because not all of them reach out. And you know, some of them I reach out to after they've made a comment or shared it and then they never reach back out to me. I'm OK with that. Like, I just wanted to connect with you and you know, hey, if you want to share more, that's great. If you don't, I'm OK with that too. But I would first and foremost listen to the people that I know are listening to the show on a regular basis. And I would almost ignore, not totally, but almost ignore the brand new listener who's only listened to one or two. BC I'm going to come to you in a second, Sid, but I want to elaborate on that because I think you just nailed it. And that is you know who your people are, you know you're loyal audience, you know who those people are. Talk to us a little bit about specifically how you were able to curate that list, because I think all of us can learn from that, Sid.

25:53 So I curate the list. Literally. It starts with social media. It starts when people share my show. They share about my show. I put their name in a spreadsheet. If I'm not connected to them, I go connect them with them on LinkedIn. I send them a note thanking them for sharing the show and really appreciated you being a listener. The second thing is when they reach out to me, I have a relatively active community that will. It's just the people I know will text me or e-mail me because my e-mail is out there and I encourage people to reach out to me. And again, I put their name on the list of people that I know are listening to the show. And I just, it's very organic.

26:33 It's very antiquated, to be honest with you. I'm just watching who's sharing the show, who's commenting on it, who's, you know, engaged in it. And I put their name on the list. And that's how I know who they are. This includes people that stop me because I, when I go to events, I get stopped in the hallway quite often and recognized. And I again, I put their name on the list. And because this person never engaged with me on social media, but in person, they walked up to me and said, Hey, are you Sid? And I'm like, yes. And I like, I love your show. I put their name in my phone and when I get home or wherever I can, I then I put it into my spreadsheet. So I think it's for me, it's important to know who those listeners are.

27:13 Sid, I love what you're saying there. Let me ask you a question, Sid. Do you directly ask for feedback from those people? Like, is that somebody you target if you're thinking about changing something with your pro, your show, or making a pivot, are those the people you're reaching out to directly, Sid? Yes, the people on the list. Like when I did my call out for feedback, I emailed our LinkedIn, messaged each one of those people on my list that I have, and asked him to schedule time with me. Here's a link to my calendar. I would love your feedback. When I meet people in person I typically like. Well tell me how you found the show. I had a lady with the US Army Corps of Engineers when I asked her that question, said I was looking for a show about office furniture and I tapped office furniture into the podcast player and up came your podcast and I've been listening ever since.

28:04 So I asked how you discovered the show. I asked what's your favorite episode or what's your favorite part? Depending on the time that I have in an in person setting, I will ask a couple of questions that are directly soliciting their feedback because I'm with them in person right at there. This opportunity to connect with them on a deeper level other than hey, I'm Sid and I take a picture with every person that stops me. I take a selfie with them and on my new community page that will go live on Monday. Actually, no, it's live now. There's an image on the checkout that has me and all of the selfie or most of the selfies that I've taken with people that have come up to me. I think that's great and and I will come to you in a second. BC but Dave put something, Dave Campbell put this in my feedback question of choice, how did you discover or find my show? And that's exactly what Sid saying. And I think that's a great question to ask because you're going to engage with that, that listener, you're going to make a connection, Sid, it's great.

28:59 You take pictures with them. I think that's fantastic. BC Go ahead. Did you have a comment? I've got a couple of approaches to to this as well. So for for one show that I have any of the interview and interviewees that I have, they're already curated. And so by that I always do a discovery call. I want to make sure one, the person who's been who's reached out to me and kind of pitched themselves initially does truly fit what I'm trying to discuss on the show. I can, through conversation with them, pull insights that I think are actionable for my audience, but also I try to get past it, the surface level questions. I don't like to spend too much time on the usual, what's your name?

29:40 What do you do? I like to really get into the to the really nitty gritty kind of stuff. And so when and again, I've gotten good feedback on how I interview people. So when I get that kind of feedback, I always ask them to check out the show when their episode comes out or check it out before their episode comes out and let me know what their thoughts are on how that conversation has been framed and, and produced and and their thoughts on that. And I've gotten some good feedback from that as well. My other approach that I'm kind of experimenting with is where the content of the show is free and I'm always focused on building a community. I like building up network of people that I can constantly engage with. So my experimentation with another show is the contents free.

30:24 You'll get the show every single time it comes out, but if you want to comment on it, you got to support it. So that's where I'm like small sub fee. You're more than welcome to let me know your thoughts on that. But if you want to comment on it after getting the constant for free, you got to be supporting the community. So I'm trying to see how those two approaches shift over time. I think that's perfect, you know, And so Sid talked about the targeted listener, we've talked about trusted peers, and Tim put something in the chat which I think we also need to spend a minute and talk about, and that is technical pros. I think as podcasters, sometimes we've got to be willing to go out there and hire a consultant or talk to a consultant to get some feedback from somebody. This I know Dave Jackson, I've worked with him a little bit. He always says, have somebody listen to this is not your mom. And I think sometimes we have to be willing to do that is put ourselves out there and go hire somebody. Like, you know, we asked for people to come on our show here on Thursdays.

31:20 That's tough for them to do that. But there's a lot of us to come here every week on that Thursday show to just give constructive feedback. You know, I, I don't, I guess we could call ourselves technical pros, but I think we need to do that too. And I think that is so critical and, and BC I want to, we didn't really talk about this today, but I think it's so important what you said because when you when you said it, I was like, you know what? A lot of people need to need to do this if you're going to do interviews. And Alex, I saw you, I'll come to you in just a second. If you're going to do interviews and you are going to be interviewed on another show, BCI love how you said you require a pre interview. What's amazing to me is how many podcasters don't require that. And to me, you're, you're walking into a train wreck potentially because you have no idea what this person, yeah, they could be famous, they could be infamous, whatever that looks like.

32:07 They you might have all the credentials, but until you talk to them, I know personally I'm on pod match and one of the things that I do is if I go in there and somebody wants to talk to me or who have me enter do interview on their show. If they don't have that set up that they want to do a pre interview, I'm moving to the next one because I want to talk to them both as the host and as the guest. Yeah, And I think it goes back to actually last week's commentary episode on on Thursday, talking about the diary of a CEO. You know, I think doing a pre interview is a great precursor to doing that active listening that we talked about. And how when you listen actively to your your guest, it helps you find great pivotal moments to expand on the topic to really find those niche discussions that you might, like you said, might otherwise just miss out on or otherwise just kind of have this black show.

33:02 So I think I think that's one of the great tools that we can have is as someone else is also on pop match to make sure that we bring onto the show really can fit. Sid, I'm going to go to you in a second, but I saw Alex want to make a comment. Go ahead, Alex. One of the benefits of this group is, is that we are starting to do reviews like that and I think it's really hard. I mean, when you're talking to listeners, there's the two types of listeners. They either love it or they're just, it's not their cup of tea. I know there's a lot in the middle. I mean, there's not a lot in the middle, but it's either they love the show and, and it's hard to find people that are going to evaluate a podcast objectively, at least I think so. And having stuff like what we do on Thursdays and or the reviews that we do, it's a blessing.

33:49 I think because this group is in the podcast world in the sense of, you know, we know a lot of different players or whatever else. There's a lot of podcasters out there. They just do their podcast and they're in a bubble and they don't have all the knowledge in the sense of the bigger podcast world. So they just do their thing. And I think that that's what's so amazing about being part of this bigger group. But I noticed it at a point. Yeah, I'm and I'll come to you just a second said, but I think what you were really getting at Alex, is the peer group. And and I think that's a piece of advice that we can all learn from is surround yourself with peers. And that's what I've done. Honestly, what I've seen the most growth in my ability to do stuff is I've surrounded myself with good people like Alex and BC and Sid and Dr. and Ashley and Mark.

34:39 Because I really think that is the secret to surround yourself with people you aspire to. And so if you're listening right now, you're a new podcaster, Get around people who can build you up. Because listen, this is the thing that really amazed me. I just started leaning into LinkedIn over the past month or so, and I've reached out there to people with big names and I'm shocked if they don't get back to me. So people out there want to be productive, but go ahead, Sid, I know you had a comment. The pre call is a great way to obviously get information, to understand what their subject matter expertise is, questions you could ask them. But to me, the pre call is the beginning of a relationship with my guest.

35:21 We laugh, we talk about issues. I try to get to know them personally, I try to get some insights of I'm trying to build a relationship with them because that's going to come across when I actually interview them that we have a relationship. It's not 2 strangers necessarily talking to each other. We've got some form of a relationship together. So I think that to me that's super, super important. I also agree with hire somebody. If you really want good feedback, hire an expert. I've worked with Mark. Most of you know that I also most recently worked with Simona on the relaunch of my show. And it's important to invest in yourself and to invest in your show to get that feedback. And I sent Mark my trailer because my trailer is ready to go. It launches on Monday.

36:04 It's 10 minutes long. I know that's longer than most trailers. I've gotten that feedback, but I'm sticking with my 10 minutes because it's, I think, really good. And the show has a new tagline. And the tagline of the show is your inside look at the people, products and ideas shaping the future of workplace design. And Mark listened to the episode and he sent me some feedback and he said, hey, I don't not sure I understand workplace design. So I said, OK, let me think about this. Then I went and listened to the trailer again. And after listening to the trailer again, my realization it marks feedback was great. He was talking about for a new listener, I'm not sure they're going to understand workplace design. But when I listened to the show again, I realized Mark is not my customer.

36:50 Mark is not my listener. He's not my ideal listener. And my ideal listener is going to understand what I mean when I say workplace design. Because when I did my in app keyword research, the number one keyword used by 9:50 shows that I evaluated in their metadata was workplace design. So I'm intentionally using workplace design in order to help grow the show and discover ability. So, you know, but I took the feedback. I appreciate the feedback. I went and listened again. And then I realized my big take away, as much as I love Mark, he's not my listener. So I didn't make any changes. And I and I, hey Mark, not talking about you as he joins the stage. So anyways, now he's gone but.

37:34 No, and it's Sid, I think that is so important what you just said, because I've had that same experience and you send it to somebody, you want to get their feedback and they send you something back like I don't understand this and I don't understand that. And Sid, it's awesome the way you were, you were able to work with that because you said, OK, Mark, I hear what you're saying. I, I respect what you're saying. I appreciate what you're saying, but here's why this works for me. And I think, Sid, that's one of the, the things we had to be cautious of when we talked about, you know, who gets a vote and who doesn't get a vote. What you're really saying is, and I'm not throwing Mark under the bus, but Mark doesn't get a vote in this case because you have a specific avatar that you're trying to reach and this is a keyword that works for them. Is that really what I hear you saying, Sid?

38:15 Yes, you are correct. And to my inability to effectively communicate, I did not respond to Mark. I just let the message sit there. So sorry Mark, I haven't responded you, but I did take action and after it. But yeah, I mean, should your should. I mean, you know, I'm just going to Ralph. Would you take feedback from an atheist on your confidently? You're confidently Christian whatever the name of your show is. No, but. Not right, no, but it's funny, Sid, I get it constantly. And here's my little, here's the rub. The way I handle it, I'm like, I hope you keep making comments because the more comments you make, it builds the algorithm, especially on YouTube is make as many comments as you want because I love the engagement, Sid but no, you're absolutely right.

38:59 I don't take that person. I look at like, OK, thank you. Moving on to the next one. Says has a question, Can you explain the in app meta data keyword search? Yes, I will do it right now. So I listen to the Inside Secrets to the Top 100 podcast by Courtney Elmer. I think a lot of you know who Courtney Elmer is and sometime last year Courtney did a series about SEO and she referred to it as Podcast SEOI actually bought her course. It's a 45 minute course. I listened to it all. I took a lot of notes and I followed the steps that she recommended. And one of the steps that she recommends is that you need to remember that the app, whether it's Spotify or Apple, which is where most people listen, is a search engine. And so you need to understand what keywords are being associated with your show and how your show's being discovered.

39:54 Yes, Google is important and yes, you need to pay attention to typical Google SEO. But in app means Spotify and Apple. So Courtney's methodology was go to Apple and grab the show, put it in ChatGPT with the prompt that says analyze the metadata of this show and provide. The keywords associated with this show. So I did that. I picked 10 shows. There's only one other show in the in the podcast world that's truly about office furniture. So I picked that one and then I picked 8-9 other ones that are in industry and I did that. I made a list of all the keywords. I looked at where I was coming up and then I came up with the appropriate keywords. 12 new keywords for season 7 of my podcast because I'm trying to grow my podcast.

40:44 I want discoverability of my podcast and we need to understand that people are not looking for a podcast with keywords on Google. They are looking inside the app that they are listening on. So that's what that means best. I hope that answered the question. And Best, thank you for answering that question. I apologize. I didn't catch it while you were asking it. But the other thing I heard you say there, Sid, and I love what you just said is you paid somebody to show you something they understood. And it's funny, I deal with this constantly and especially with my new show where I'm I'm helping people with the financial side of content creation. Pay somebody to do it or show you how to do it. Because the truth of the matter is said, how much time would you have wasted if you hadn't bought that mini course or whatever you're talking about that course to go do that.

41:30 We need to do the same thing. Click, here's the truth. You can pay with your time or you can pay with your money. We've only got so much time. I speak to it from a place of having money to be able to do do this. And I know that's not the same for every single person out there, but you've got to make that decision, Sid. Is that really what you're saying is you made a decision that look, I, I need to know how to do this and I need to know how to do this effectively, so I'm going to pay somebody to show me how to do that. Is that what you're getting at, Sid? Yes, that is correct. I had never heard of this before until I she talked about it one day. I discovered her at Pod Fest movement and I listened to her talk at Pop Fest movement. So then I went started listening to her podcast. Her name Bez is Courtney Elmer Elmer and her show is insider secrets to a top 100 podcast. And so she did you know her episodes are relatively short. She did a couple of episodes about this research. I would have never known this existed. This podcast, SCOPSEO, I would have never known it existed. I would have never thought about it until I heard her talk about it.

42:34 And then because my focus in 2026 is growing my show. I have 10 sponsors that have gotten me almost to my goal of dollar goal of sponsorships and I need to make sure my show grows. So I am focused on how do we get more downloads, How do we get more reach and discoverability of my show is important. And so now that I did this and so I, she, she talked about the course on her podcast. It was $150.00. It was 45 minutes. I took tons of notes. And then immediately after that, I took action. I immediately took action. I opened up a spreadsheet, did it open up chat. GPD did everything that she said. And I was amazed at what I learned about where my show is showing up and where my show wasn't so that I could actually take this necessary steps to improve it for Season 7.

43:24 I mean, I rewrote the footer. I rewrote that the entire description. I made sure all the keywords or most of the keywords are in there so that we get picked up. I'm saying she talks about all this. I'm saying the keywords like I say, welcome back or welcome to the trend report your inside look at the people, products and ideas shaping the future of workplace design. That is now how I open up the show because then that goes into the transcript and the transcript gets put on my website. So guess who picks up the transcript? Google picks up the transcript. I use words like workplace design. So then it's going to be picked up inside the player. So I mean, you guys know I spent a ton of time doing this, but yes, I invested the $150.00 because I I know what my goal is for my show in 2026. And now I'm rambling so I'll be quiet. No, Sid, I think that's awesome.

44:11 And you actually pivoted to the final question I wanted to ask today because I want to give some practical advice. And Sid, you just nailed it with some great practical advice. And honestly, Sid, you shared something I didn't even know about. So my next and final question for today was one, What's one piece of feedback you can test for the next three episodes without rebuilding your whole show? Because as I was planning for today, I said, you know, it's real easy to get feedback and then say, well, I'm just going to start over. This show's not working. So how do you, you know, what do you measure? Do you look at retention? Do you look at comments, DMS or how do you do this? Anybody want to share anything that that they've tried after getting some feedback and, and how did you measure the effectiveness of that feedback? I'm certainly open to any ideas or things that anybody here has used that has worked.

44:56 I look at 3 predominant things. Obviously, I look at downloads. That's important. I look at consumption rate because that tells me about the length of the show without anybody telling me about the length of the show, right? That tells me how long they're listening. And then the third thing I look at is social media engagement. Are they commenting or sharing the episode? Are they sharing their thoughts about it or, you know, in a comment or they publicly share it with their other people? Those are the three things that I look at to see to measure right now, to measure the success of the show. I just hired a marketing coordinator. She starts on Monday. She's podcast specific and she's going to help me with other analytics so that I can measure the growth of the show and that we can report the growth of the show to our sponsors. I think that's so important, Sid, because we have to, you know, it's one thing to know what we want to do. It's another thing, and my coach says this to me all the time. He says how do you measure that, Ralph? You know, in accounting that I work in everyday measurements, simple.

45:50 I mean, we can look at dollars and cents. But Sid, I love where you're going with this because you're putting metrics out there that you are going to measure that you can say, is this working, Is this not working? And I think that is a huge thing that you can do. Does anybody else want to share anything before we start to wrap things up today? I'm going to answer D Rs question. No, DRI do not have an affiliate link to that and you have to go back several episodes where she's talking about podcast SEO and in the show notes is a link to that course. And Dave? Just not find it. If I can go find it later today, I'll put it in the Facebook Messenger chat, OK? Great. Thanks. I appreciate it. And Dave, just put something in the chat. I think we should visit a little bit here and say don't solely trust your hosting site data.

46:33 Monitor your Apple, Spotify, YouTube if you're on there. Your hosting site may only see high level general data. Has anyone else experienced that as well? I'm not sure that I 100% understand where Dave is going to. I think he's what he's saying is like, I use Captivate for my shows and I'm looking at the data there. But has anyone else found something else that's better to use? Go ahead BC. Well, I was going to say I've not seen that specifically with podcasting, but I have seen that with say, schedulers. A lot of times when you conglomerate different data from and into one space, the numbers are not always accurate. So to his point, be sure to check out more local analytics to the different streaming platform because I I agree with that.

47:15 Sid, correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't hear you word. I didn't hear you say the word download. I heard what you said was engagement retention. And I think it's real easy, especially for new podcasters to get stuck on that number. I know when I first started, man, I had like 12 downloads and I was like, why am I doing this? And somebody said to me, Ralph, no, don't go by that. Yeah, that's that's one piece of measurement. But that doesn't tell the whole story. Said, is that what you're the the the the metrics you're using? Are things besides downloads, correct? I look at them and they're visible and visible number of growth. So this month, you know, we got 5000 downloads, which we don't, but next month we got 6000 downloads. That's that's just show, that's that shows the show is growing.

47:58 But to me it's more about how are they engaging? You're right. How are they engaging? Is the show being shared? Because we have to remember, I mean, the best way to grow our show is through word of mouth advertising. And that's when people share your show. That's when people share your show, whether it's in a conversation like this, like I just shared Courtney's show or it's publicly on social media when they share your show, that's the best way to grow because it's a referral from a trusted friend and ally, right? So I agree with Dave, like you got to put, you got to search, look at all of the data that is out there, take it in, chart it out and then see what's you see how your show's performing. Don't forget your website. So we put an embedded player.

48:43 Each show has its own, each episode has its own landing page and we embed a bus brow player on that landing page. 45% of our listens come from the landing page, The embedded player. I'm sure I was shocked at it and I had to ask bus brow when I saw them at Podcast Movement. It's a couple of clarifications about another one called Web Browser and but don't forget the analytics on your website. Like how many like page views? How many pages like this is something that happened to me. I looked at a page and I actually talked to Mark about this. I looked at a page and it had almost 900 views. And that's that episode had oh, just maybe over 100 plays. So I'm asking myself, based on my website that data, there were 900 people that clicked on that landing page. Why did they not click the play button? So we're testing the page layouts, we're testing the location of the player, those kinds of things. Because we had that many people go to a landing page, but they didn't hit the play button.

49:52 Bez, I like what you put in the chat there. You could do a whole show about analytics. That's so true. And also like what Dave said, he said get into Apple Podcasts and Spotify creators and listen. I'm going to tell you right now the first time I did that and when I looked at retention numbers, man, you, you better have a strong stomach when you go on there because you're going to really see because you might have a ton of downloads, but your retention rates aren't great. And you can learn a lot from that. And, and you know, but that's all part of the analytics, Sid. And I love what you said about your website because what you're saying is I got all these people clicking on this page, but I don't see the same number of downloads. I think that is so mission critical. Now before we roll up, does anybody want to share anything else about feedback? How not to get defensive about it? I, I feel like we had a really good discussion today. We, we definitely got some great takeaways today, but does anybody else want to throw something in before I start to land this plane?

50:41 Well, here's what I want to end with. Openness to feedback isn't weakness. It's real easy for us to think, Oh, we're being, you know, this is weakness, but it's a craft. So what I'm going to encourage everybody to do is find that peer group, understand who you're talking to and and think about what you can do to just make little but but make sure you're listening to feedback from people who are your people, people who are in your peer group. And like Sid said, and and and Sid, you could have taken away the show today. So thank you so much for this today, but make sure you're making that relationship with your audience members. That is super critical and said, I'm going to throw, I'm going to throw one more thing and that is and pay somebody to do something that you don't know how to do because that I'm going to tell you right now. I'm going to go figure out this SEO thing because that is massive.

51:25 But I just want to thank everybody today for joining us. I think it was a great discussion. Don't forget to join us tomorrow. Now tomorrow is, you know, we talked about wins on on Fridays tomorrow when I I want to go a little deeper and I want to talk about those wins that you might not see and I want to kind of cultivate those wins that you're not seeing every day. So I just want to wish everybody a great day. Thank you for joining me and have a great day today.