455. What ‘Ear Hustle’ Can Teach You About Storytelling

0:04 Good morning podcasting, Morning Chat. Today is Tuesday, February 17th, 2026, and today our obsession worthy podcast series continues as we learn from ear hustles looking out, unpacking the storytelling structure behind its binge ability and how you can use it to deepen listener connection. So if you're listening live on Clubhouse, hit the share button, bottom left hand side of the screen and share it. However, Clubhouse lets you. And if you're catching us via podcast, YouTube, LinkedIn, please share this episode with a fellow podcaster. And now give us about 30 seconds and we'll get things rolling. Thanks for being here. Good morning again podcasting morning chat. Thanks so much for being here.

1:23 I am your host Mark Ronick and on stage with me we have my Co hosts Nick Naulback, producer Ashley Feller, Dr. Faye, Sid Meadows, Ralph E Step, Jonathan Howard and BC Babbles also on stage with us. I know we call her Tide often but that's her name here on Clubhouse. Her real name Nikki. We have Nikki on stage with us and Alex Baelish has joined us as well. Good to see everybody. Hope you had a great Valentine's Day. I'm going to get to Valentine's Day in a minute before we dive into the Obsession Worthy podcast series 1st. A happy 4th anniversary to the Podcasting Morning chat. We celebrated that over this past weekend. On Sunday, yes.

2:13 Sunday I believe maybe, yeah. Sunday, yes, 'cause Saturday was Valentine's Day. So yeah, four years run in. And of course the podcasting morning chat was a thing before I, we'll call it rebooted it, but it, it was a thing solely on Clubhouse and it went away. It kind of fizzled out. And I don't know, maybe about a year later I kicked it back off solely on Clubhouse. And it took me a year or two to finally recognize that you know what, this is worth putting out as a podcast too. And the rest is history. We've had a lot of we've had a lot of people come through these doors that have been significant parts of it, some no longer here, some since the very beginning.

2:59 Sid being an example of being one of the O GS from the that original PMC to the newer version that I took over with Pedro four years ago. So thank you all for really making this whole thing become what it has become. It's turned into an in person conferences. It's come, it's turned into online relationships and offline for that matter. And it's really been a very special project to say the least, and now community. So thank you all. And then yes, it was also Valentine's Day. We didn't even acknowledge it on Friday. I think we were so hyper focused on Friday the 13th and that theme.

3:42 But yeah, I hope everyone had a great Valentine's weekend. Nick told me something that I just wanted to get to briefly that I just think is really cool and creative that he's been doing and that something he did this Valentine's Day with his wife. Nick, would you tell us what you did with your wife this weekend? And it's apparently something that you're doing regularly now as well. And nobody's minds in the gutter. OK, what is it, Nick? What are you guys up to for Valentine's Day? This weekend, a couple of our friends, they own this house that's like a, an Airbnb, but they, it's a pretty large house. So they host a lot of events there. And one of the events that they wanted to host was a murder mystery.

4:26 And we'd got to talk in like discussing what you could possibly do for the murder mystery. And they're basically like, we want you guys to just do it. We want you to make it, We want you to put it on, we want you to do it. And they, they actually schedule like they created the event before we even had anything started on this thing. So they already started bringing in people. So my wife and I, we made the murder mystery. Like we developed the whole story, the clues, like all the whole gameplay, all that stuff. And this weekend, Valentine's Day, they had this event we put on the murder mystery and it was, I think we had 51 people registered and it was like maybe 4 to 6 people that didn't actually show up. So we had a massive group for this thing. But yeah, it went extremely well. A lot of people were like, Oh my gosh, you have to do this every week.

5:18 And we're like, absolutely not. Regardless, we're going to end up doing more next week. We're actually putting on the same murder mystery for a different group. But then we are already in the planning stages of the next mystery that will be coming in the future. This is so cool. So cool name. Yeah. Are you guys? So how much AI are you using to help you with this? Actually, like the bulk of the story itself was not AI at all. It was pretty much entirely my wife. Wow. We went through a couple different like stages and iterations. Like we started with AI and we had like the seed of a story and we used AI to kind of help build out a very rough draft of it and it helped with a lot of the clues and like pinning down the gameplay and stuff like that, or like giving us ideas for the gameplay. But about what was it Monday, It was either Sunday or Monday before we were hosting this thing. My wife was going through all the stuff and she's like, I absolutely hate it.

6:18 And she went and rewrote the entire thing from start to finish, all of the character like groups and everything. Like it was pretty impressive. So we used AI for something like the clean up stuff. Like we had to develop 50 character cards for people. And we definitely used AI to help with that. But yeah, a lot of it was very limited AI for the most part. That is really cool. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah. I saw a picture that you that your wife posted of the two of you all dressed up in front of the doors ready to start the murder mystery. And I just thought you two were doing something together for Valentine's Day. I didn't realize you guys were actually putting on the event.

7:00 So kudos to you guys. That's really fun. Yeah, I think it's not a typical Valentine's Day. Yeah. I guess we're kind of those people. We go to Halloween stuff for our anniversary and we put on murder mysteries for Valentine's. Day. I love it. Dr. has a question. Go ahead, DRI. Think you guys should put out like APDF or something on how people can plan one of these? I mean it it never even occurred to me that there is a whole planning process. I guess it did, but you just don't think about what goes on behind the scenes on on getting ready for this. This will be a second job they'll be charging soon.

7:41 I have a. Feeling did you have like dinner or something? Was there dinner served? Yeah, So one Alex, yes, they did pay us to do this, so it's kind of cool. It is like a second job now and we've been talking about that like could be like a a little side hustle business thing that we do. But yeah, it was like a whole like night event. So when everyone got there, they came in, they got their character cards, and then there was like they had drinks being served and hors d'oeuvres and stuff like that. So it was like a little social hour when everyone got in and then kind of the theatrics came in, a big speech was given and then the murder happens and then everyone's kind of thrown into the gameplay. I got to say that Valentine's Day is the perfect, perfect day to have this.

8:28 It takes pressure off of those first dates. It's great for single women to go to and it's great for couples to go to. It is a perfect day for it. Yes, congratulations, Nick. That's really fun. And yeah, I agree with Dr. The the behind the scenes stuff could really be a thing. It would be cool to watch on social media, seeing how people put together these types of events. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's very cool. Cool, cool thing that you and your wife are doing, Nick, and keep us posted on how that's going. All right, let's shift gears and get into today's episode. Obsession Worthy podcast series continues. And today we're breaking down the show Ear Hustle. Thanks to Jonathan Howard, who leads the charge on this particular series.

9:18 The episode we're digging into is looking out. That's the name of it. And Jonathan, before we dig in, I, you know, I know we do this to study why shows like this earns repeat listening and how indie podcasters can help apply the lessons. If there's anything else that you want to add about this series before we dig in, by all means, go for it. And I've got all the clips ready to play as well. Like you said, it's a lot of just finding why these particular things work and what makes them special. This particular episode, this is one of my favorite actual ones that I've broken down because of the storytelling of it. So we'll get into a little bit of that. Awesome.

9:58 Well, then let's dig in. Again, the show is called Ear Hustle if you haven't heard of it. And admittedly, I mean, I think I've heard of it but never listened to it before. And that and again, the episode's called Looking Out, and we'll put a link in the show notes for our audience if they want to go check out the full episode. But take it away, Jonathan. All right, so just so you know what the concept of the podcast is, it tells stories about life inside of prison, but through like small human moments. So this particular episode looking out, it's not about prison politics. It's about caring for something when the world feels hard. They're really human moments. They're relatable. Even though we're not in prison, we're relatable.

10:40 And you can really connect with the listener and they can understand what the story is and the way that they do that. Just a quick note is through a universal doorway. And the particular one for this episode is the need to nurture, the need to be needed, and the need for unconditional love. So things that we all feel, and those are really powerful emotions that we're feeling. It's not about issues. It's about intimacy and connection and human lives. And that's the relatability factor right there, right? It doesn't matter whether you're in prison or or not. What's important, yeah, is that human connection that I think we all need and desire for sure. This particular episode, one thing that does is it flips the expectations immediately.

11:26 You expect tension, but you get tenderness and you expect things in survival mode, but you get someone who cares for birds. The hook is the emotional contrast and the and the curiosity gap. So it's the difference between what we know and what we can learn. So that kind of leads us into the first clip. I do want to make a note on the production, though. The production sets the scene in this podcast. There's ambient prison noise, but also clean narration and alternating perspectives, which makes which makes it feel alive. And then there's tight editing, no wasted space, which gives it movement. And then both of the narrators are guides on this on this show. So let's jump into that first clip. Mark, We start in an unexpected place for a prison based podcast.

12:13 I love animals. Oh yeah. Since I've been in prison, I've had black widows, tarantulas, a lot of grasshoppers, beetles. At San Quentin, inmates aren't allowed to have pets, but some guys get creative, like Rocher. Gophers, rabbits. I had four swallows, a toad, praying mantis, 21 snails, frog, red breasted Finch whose arm broke. I had a desert mold that was partially paralyzed. Tape your hamster. Just really lazy with an attitude. The centipede, and it was a wolf. It was a bad little monster. I had two fish that had babies. Twice I had a tarantula broke out, one time, Marcelli said.

12:55 Yo Spider got out. And I love the sound, the way that, like you pointed out, the production, the sound kind of that eerie drone type music that's playing behind it, even though it kind of feels fun and silly, or at least it could be in some ways. In other ways, Obviously there's a sadness that goes with that too, right? It's like they have to make up these companionships, these these relationships with these quote UN quote pets. But yeah, it's I, I love the production value, Jonathan. Yeah, the production value is is fantastic. And this clip is like all the following. It's weird, it's unexpected, it's visual, it's a little bit concerning, it's oddly charming, and it's also a little bit disconnected from what we would expect, which causes us all to have that moment of leaning in and seeing what happens.

13:46 Because at this point, we don't even know what's going to happen to the escaped spider. So we just want to know a little bit more. It's an interesting and unique way to start a podcast. So, and Jonathan, we've got a couple of people that want to chime in here as well, Ralph and BC. So let's check in with Ralph first. And a reminder to anybody on stage on Clubhouse or if you're listening in the audience and you want to be a part of this conversation, raise your hand, come on up, put it in the chat however you feel most comfortable participating. We want to hear from you. Go for it, Ralph. Good. Morning. Yeah. Good morning, everybody. Jonathan, I just want to say when I started to listen to this, it was not at all what I expected. I'm starting to think, OK, well, this is going to be about people in prison.

14:28 And I'm like, I don't have a lot of sympathy for people in prison. You know, big deal, who cares? And then as soon as it launches and I was like, wait a minute, I was working while I was listening to this and I and I found myself just enthralled by the thing. I was like, oh, I got to listen to this. I'm a pet person. I raise cows here on the farm and we've got a dog and all that stuff. So it immediately connected with me. But you're right, dude, it was not what I was expecting. So great job they did leading into that because I was expecting one thing, it got something completely different. Yeah, absolutely. BC hold your thought for a second. I'm going to jump to Sid and then I'm going to come to you next. Go ahead, Sid. I just want to echo a little bit of what Ralph said. I mean, I thought this was a great episode, Jonathan. It's a great show to highlight.

15:08 And one of the things that I appreciate about this one is this is not a celebrity. This is not something that we know of. It's, you know, getting millions of views her episode. So I like the fact that this appears to be a bit more on the independent side, but yet it's a great example of what can be done. And you mentioned it earlier, the sound design on this was just really cool. Yeah, really cool. And also I think done tastefully, right, like they're not overdoing the sound effects. It's not every moment we're getting a different sound effect. They're using it thoughtfully. They're sprinkling it in to really help that moment sink in for you as a listener BC what did you want to add? Yeah, I want to also say just the structure of this show, I'm going off of that as well, is so cool. I like the fact that, you know, we're not just hearing about this character called the Roche.

16:01 We just these people get to come in with their segments and help illuminate certain introduced topics or introduced a little segments that 2 main narrators provide to us. And I want to say this being very respectful of the gravity of everyone's situation in the show. But listening to the episode reminded me of a basically a non musical version of Cellblock Tango from Chicago. Kind of how everyone gets a chance to come in, discuss how they ended up in prison, what they're there for, their perspective on their story. And it just kind of seems like a it's got a similar vibe and kind of structure, minus the music and the dancing, of course, but that was kind of how I was perceiving the episode as it went on.

16:42 Yeah, thank you, BC, Appreciate that. By the way, if you want to see Ralph, if you want to see BC chiming in, or Jonathan for that matter, they're with me live on video right now on YouTube, LinkedIn, Facebook, etcetera. But if you want to see us on YouTube, since we were just talking this morning how things are growing over there, why don't you come join us? Just go to podcastingmorningchat.com/youtube and come join us and see these lovely faces. OK, Jonathan, what do we got next? Well, I love that we were talking about Tango, but the couple things that I wanted to point out about this is the pacing and the tenderness of the the particular clip here. You feel for Roach.

17:28 All of a sudden you're you're expecting to hear from a prisoner and then you're feeling like a connection right away from a real human, a slightly weird human, but a real human. And the reason that this actually works as a beginning is because we don't know where it's going. So we lean in for a little bit more of this because we don't know what's going to happen next. So how I want to I just want to point out that we can use this particular opening for ourselves. Start with something specific but surprising because details build trust much faster than explanation. So try doing something a little bit outside the box to start your podcast. Let's listen to a little bit more about this human who goes by the name of Roach.

18:09 And let me ask you before I hit play on that, Jonathan, do we know are these the, is he the real person or is this an actor playing the person? That's a great question. And actually, just so you guys know, one of the narrators is not in prison. One of the narrators is imprisoned. Erlon is the man that works that is in prison and the female is not. She works at the prison. OK. Oh, interesting. That's really fascinating. So real people. Yeah, alright, here's that clip. My name is Ronald Draper, but I go by Roach. My relationship with people is pretty strained. I don't trust them. From early on they they have been a source of pain for me. So Roach is about 40 years old.

18:55 And he's a pretty shy guy. Until you know him. When I was a child, before I was removed from the care of my mom's custody, she tried to drown me a couple times in the tub and then she stopped and she left the bathroom and she was crying. I I knew she was unhappy or sad at some I did. I wanted to actually comfort her but I didn't know how to do it. I don't remember her face and I haven't seen her since. Roach said he was six or seven years old before he had his first real connection with a person. We meet the real person in this clip right off the bat, somebody who's had a strained relationship with people and has a lot of trauma in his past.

19:44 So the animals are no longer random. They're his security blanket because they're safer than people. So we feel that immediately to him, the animals are safer than people, and that's the emotional driver in this episode. So clip one makes us curious, so we lean in, and clip 2 makes us stick around. So it becomes more than just a curious inmate, it's now a person that we care about and a person that has had a troubled past. I really, what I really like about this whole format is the fact that it's storytelling, but it feels a lot like more of a typical podcast in the sense that it's very conversational. You have two hosts, they're chatting with one another, but it is very intentional storytelling. So as a podcaster, that's interesting to me. It's intriguing.

20:38 It makes me think about, you know, how we how we handle these different interviews that we have on our podcasts and how we can make them more dynamic. And I think ear hustles certainly made this very dynamic already so far. So I don't know if anybody has anything that they want to say about this particular clip. I think that this highlights for us that just that little clip that everybody has a story, and some stories lead to really great things, some stories lead to troubling things. And I think it just reminds us that everybody's got a story and they should share their story. And I think that this also to a degree, humanizes the people that are behind bars, right? Makes him a lot more relatable than what we would typically think or where our minds would go. And we hear about somebody that's actually in prison. So I really appreciate the fact that it humanized him and that everybody just, again, it highlights that everybody has a story.

21:37 Agreed, and I think Yvonne is pointing out something similar she's saying in the chat here. Suddenly he's a human we we can relate to instead of curiosity or just a weird person. And that's another side note too, right? It's like it's easy for us to judge people and say that they're weird, right? But then the moment we started to learn why this particular person befriends these insects, rodents, etcetera, we learn it's because of his strained relationship with human beings. It, it gives us a reason to the weirdness, quote UN quote. And now it doesn't feel terribly weird to me anymore. Now it makes sense.

22:19 And I think that's a great tip for us to learn as interviewers, as storytellers, really how to connect with the the character of the story 1st and then to really reveal what makes that character tick. BCI think you wanted to chime in as well. Going off of what SO was talking about, and there was also a quick mention in the earlier part of the story, I think from the male narrator, where he mentions that this particular prison is as a nice change of what we typically hear about. The prison system is actually built better for rehabilitation, which I think is a good thing to hear. And now I don't know if Jonathan's going to play a clip that kind of re mentions the snails. I don't know if you can like give a quick nod, but there's a moment with the snails where they talk about how certain CE OS treat the situation's differently and how some of the pets have been like tossed out and whatnot because of a clean health concern.

23:14 When he mentioned that, I got a little worried having heard his background thinking oh God I hope he doesn't have a look. I hope his CEO is not a Percy and that's a reference to the Green Mile character for anyone who's not seen Green Mile. Because I would hate for this guy to have gone through what he did prior to prison just to find these security blankets that he has in these smaller living creatures just to get a Percy as a COI would hate that from. That's just my two cents there. Yeah. And I don't remember if I have the clip with the snails. I know it, it's close to one of the clips that I pulled, but I don't know if it is included. But yeah, if it is, we'll talk about it. Let's go to Nikki, AKA Tide. Nikki, good morning to you.

23:55 What did you want to add? When I was listening to the clip, I heard water and it sounded like the dripping faucet. I'm sure you got heard it as well. And when I heard that, my immediate instinct was to say, why did they have water in the background? And what does that have to do with like a prison system? I didn't understand what the sound effect was for. But then immediately right after that, when he talked about how his mother tried to drown him, I was like, Oh my gosh, what incredible foreshadow. And it wasn't overdone. It wasn't like the faucet fully turned on, which may have been a bit much or overkill, but the the dripping faucet was incredibly impactful. And what a great connection there, too, because quite frankly, I wasn't even making that connection.

24:39 Heard the sound of X, heard the story and didn't put two and two together. But now that you say that it is real, it's brilliant the way that they did that, I think. Yeah, I'm just thinking that through. Yeah. The idea of the foreshadowing, that foreshadowing, if you watch any good movie, you'll find a lot of foreshadowing if you pay attention throughout that storytelling. Yeah, great point. Tide or Nikki and BC. Did you have something else you wanted to add? Yeah. And going off of it, that's a great, I'm going to use a cinematic term here, Meson Song bit there because I think the fact that it's a dripping fountain or whatever it is, as opposed to like a fully running one.

25:20 When we think of dripping water, it's usually after something's been used, like an after an attempt of something or after an action of something. So I think the fact that to Tides one that was dripping gives us the sensation that something occurred and it's not a good moment. And then to come in with his story about his mother to Tides one just makes it so much more impactful. Agreed. And Dr. Did you want to say what you put in our little private chat here on Riverside? It just shows you because the dripping was at a volume, it was a very low volume. It was like in the back, way, way in the back, you heard something and it just goes to show you that just a tiny little bit of a thing has such a huge impact. Agreed.

26:07 Absolutely. Yeah. All right, Jonathan, let's keep it going. This clip, the one thing that I did want to point out and I talked about it earlier is this is where the universal doorway shows up. It's about a person wanting connection, a person wanting something to love, a person feeling safe, loving something. So this episode goes from a prisoner to It can be about you very, very quickly. And that's what that Universal Doorway does, is it allows it to be about the listener and what they're feeling in the moment as the other stories being told. So that's that second clip. The third clip. I don't know why I'm losing my voice, but if I always talk about the messy middle, this is kind of part of the messy middle and what we learn from the middle, his life and the whole process that they're going through. So that's the third clip.

26:54 Here it comes. One time I had 4 swallows at once and they end up dying that year. I think I lost maybe 10 along the building. They would always fall down and people would come get me a got some more, got some more, got some more. And so I had to smuggle them into the building and then they would look really strong. They would even look like they were doing well. But I would leave and come back and then one will be down to will be down. I found out they end up dying because they needed to be touched and to feel a connection with some mother with the parent. So when I have to take care of another baby, swallow oh it will happen again.

27:42 I will keep it in my shirt pocket on my person so it can hear my heartbeat and my voice and feel connected and nurture. Wow. Obviously there's a connection between the swallows needing that attention, needing that mothering that he didn't get that he's now providing for the birds. And he learning that is a very powerful like in in a couple seconds. You feel that they need me kind of like I needed my mother and I didn't get her. Really beautiful symbolism there and just well done. We hear about the process. We hear about them feeding the birds and protecting them, carrying them in the shirt pocket.

28:25 And this really shows us that he cares. We're not told he cares. We see that in his actions and that's something that's another really strong storytelling tool. And this is kind of, it's receipt based storytelling. It's really this is what happened and you can see it. We don't have to explain it. You're seeing it happen. I think this is also a great way to, you know, what is see a perhaps a contradiction to what might be a more common assumption for someone with roaches background. You know, I think a lot of people might assume that because of this experience with his mom, which resulted in his huge distrust of people, that he just wouldn't have an affectionate bone in his body. But the fact that he is trying to showcase his desire for that warmth, that comfort by providing it to these pets of his is a great kind of element of almost of hope for the for the, for the character, for the person behind the character, which I just think it's a really great kind of breath of fresh air for this kind of story.

29:26 Absolutely agreed. And good to have BC here just from that movie side of things, right the his perspective. I think that's really helpful for these conversations because the yeah, podcast is not a movie, but storytelling is storytelling. It can be applied no matter what medium you're using. So yeah, thanks for your insights as well. BC Jonathan, back to you. This really shows us why the process matters. In every Obsession Worthy podcast, I talk about the messy middle because it's where we bond. It's where we hear about the work and the friction and the things that go right, the things that go wrong and you feel like you're there in that moment with them. That's why the messy middle is so powerful because relatability lives in the process. Relatability lives in the things that are going on, the things that you do.

30:09 It's not about the outcome, it's about what how you got to that outcome. That messy middle is something I'll always talk about and why it's so important because it's where we connect and we can hit the 4th clip where he names the reason that this episode is powerful and why he cares for the animals in very plain language. I take care of animals because they teach me what I can't learn from people. It's unconditional affection or appreciation. It's unconditional love, affection. It's what he never got from humans, he gets from the animals. Very plain language, but that's what the podcast is about. This particular episode is that one thing.

30:53 And I think that's a really important lesson as well for all of us is when we're constructing our episodes, the idea and the layout of the episode, are we asking ourselves what's that emotional truth that the audience is going to walk away with? Because it does all come down to emotion. If you want to build your audience, make your podcast obsession worthy, binge able, however you want to call it, it's when we can bring out emotion in our audience. And that's why a lot of times we encourage people to share, you know, when they're first, when a listener first presses play and we say 1 strategy is to ask them a question. And that question is meant, in my opinion, to pull at that emotional, at those emotional strings. It's to help people recognize that we understand the pain point.

31:51 We see the pain point, we see them and that we're here to address it and hopefully add some clarity, some solutions to the problem, right? But whatever it is, I think it's so important for us to always ask what that emotional truth is that we want our audience to walk away with. Ralph, what do you got? I want to say something a little contrarian, Jonathan, I and I sort of had a side chat about this. The thing that took away from this episode for me was the silly advertisements in it that really diminished the message. And, and I, and I just want to talk about that because it's clear that this is a network show, PRX or something like that, but the placement of the ads just diminished the overall take away that I had from the episode. And I want to bring it up because it's a great episode. It connected to me at a human level, but the PR not, and I'm not picking on PRX, but the advertisement, the placement of them just diminished from that.

32:48 And it wasn't just that there was ads, it was the ads. It just didn't make any sense. They were just silly ads. I think, Jonathan, you might want to mention the one ad that you and I both said, well, that doesn't make any sense at all. Anyway, I'm the money guy, right? So I appreciate they want to make money at this, but be sensible in what you're promoting because it just completely it took away from the message. Ralph, do you think, now I know this isn't necessarily a podcast you would go to normally, but does something like that? Do you think you make a judgement and decide after the fact? Like OK yeah, good podcast but I can't keep listening to new episodes because the ads drive me nuts. Yeah, well, I would listen to it again, to be honest with you. But the ads just, and it just seems like, and this isn't a picking on Jonathan, but the obsession where they seem to be riddled with these ads.

33:38 And I get it, they're cashing in. I totally get it, but I'm also thinking about the viewer and or the listener or the viewer, whichever one we're picking and saying, Do you realize how much you're diminishing that? Because I, I don't know that we realize that there may be a better way to promote to get money from this. Listen, I'm a capitalist. I totally get making money. It's fantastic. And this is something we can all take away from it. When we seek to cash in, we got to be willing to accept that we're going to lose some viewers, we're going to lose an audience. That's my point, Mark, is did it make it so I didn't want to listen to it again? No, not at all. But it did diminish the experience for me. Yeah. And when we think about, let's say, TV as an example, right, because TV does a lot of storytelling and they're different shows and they have commercials all the time, right? And I think that maybe the lesson here is if we're going to put ads into our podcast, we got to be strategic about it. We got to you know, from both what point in the story is this a good spot to pause right and then also to finding the right fit ads.

34:46 That doesn't make it feel so jarring. That doesn't completely pull us out of the story altogether like Ralph is describing. I agree with you, Ralph, Like, and I think that this show does a great job of host doing host read ads. Like, I think that's really key, especially in a storytelling podcast, because it does kind of keep me in a little bit longer when I'm hearing them because it's almost like they're telling a story with their ad. But it does still kind of pop in randomly and it feels a little jarring. So I would like to have some kind of transition, some kind of smooth transition back from this storytelling to the ad and then back to the storytelling again.

35:26 Yeah, Ralph. Yeah. So I wanted to add something to that because if had they thought about it ahead of time, they could have went out and solicited advertising with a pet shop or some kind of pet branding that would have tied directly into what they're talking about in this episode. And I think we all can learn from that. If there's a topic that you're talking about or something that you're promoting on your show, go find advertisers, go find brands that match that because that's a perfect tie. And if there had been a commercial for some sort of online, a pet service or something like that, it would have been perfect for this episode. But the ones they did with, like it was Quince for buying clothes or something. I'm thinking that makes no connection here whatsoever because this dude in prison is not getting clothes from Quince, right? It's just not happening.

36:10 So that connection just completely falled for me. Yep, I'm with you there. Ashley wants to chime in. Go ahead, Ashley. Yeah, I was just thinking about the ads and I can't help but wonder because, you know, this is a big production. A team of people have produced this podcast, I'm sure, and all those folks need to be paid, I wonder. If. The show and the sponsors have an agreement laid out ahead of time as to where those ads are and what those, of course, what those ads are because they've made the agreement with the sponsors. But. That's something to consider if you have sponsors on your podcast. Is the negotiation process like where in the show are these ads going to happen?

36:53 Yeah, Thank you, Ashley. Great point. And Dr. wants to chime in as well. Go ahead, Dr. Well, this is where I'm going to call Sid into it because his method of when he got his sponsors, he really is the one that called the shots. And you know, he has taught me that when you take on sponsors, it's not, Oh my God, I have to kowtow to all the sponsors and everything. That is not the approach that Sid took. Sid, you want to talk about that just for a second? Thanks. For putting me on the spot, DI. Sorry. It's a really great point, and sponsorship is certainly a hot topic amongst podcasters in general. For sure.

37:35 My sponsors were very, very targeted. I knew I know who my audience is, I know what my audience needs, and I know the people that can help my audience. So I made a list of who those people were and went to them and talked to them about the show, sent them the media kit, sent them the outline of the sponsors, our sponsorship opportunities and had conversations with them from there. And it was very much, this is what you get for being a sponsor. So I guess you could say I took control of the situation. I targeted the what I believe to be the right people. One of the 12 or so people that I respond that I reached out to, only two said no and two said call me next year because I don't have the budget for it this year.

38:22 I think I just I owned it if that's answering your question the right way to you. Yep. She's nodding her head. Yes. Yeah. Thank you, Sid and thank you for your on the spot answer. Much appreciated. Jonathan, I think we're coming back to you. One comment on the ads I did. I do agree, especially at the beginning there was a lot of ads. Radiotopia does this a lot and it it is a little bit painful. So luckily we can Fast forward through all of them. But yeah, it's a little bit painful. So. But I also want to bring us back to the clip. So this 4th clip, it really describes that unconditional love in very plain language. It's not poetic, it's not dramatic, it's just, it is what it is. But that simplicity makes it credible. And it shows that he loves animals because they provided him the unconditional love he is always wanted and he craved from his mom, but he never got.

39:11 So those animals are core to who he is and how he shows up now in the world. And I think that's important. This also kind of highlights a belief flip. Strength isn't hardness, it's the ability to care. So he may not be the hardest person in that prison, but he is quite possibly the strongest as he has a huge ability to care for things. So that was a big kind of moment in that clip is we see this belief suddenly switched. It's not about hardness. It's about being able to care, which is often considered softness. So in this last clip, they asked some inmates what they would be if they were animals. And Roach's answer is imaginative, fun and also a little bit of devastating at the same time. So we can play that 5th.

40:00 Clip answer is pure Roach. I want to hear that. If I could be an animal, any animal, it would be a wish dragon that would only appear when a kid needed it. Because my experience with imaginary friends, they were needed. So the thing about being a dragon is they eat meat and I couldn't do that. So I'd have to be a vegetarian dragon. A thin vegetarian dragon. He thought the whole thing through, he had all the details of what he needed to do. But the answer being a wish dragon, It's funny, it's imaginative, but it's also a little devastating because it reveals who he is deep down and that he does care and that he wants other kids to not have the life that he did.

40:46 So it really ends the episode with a dramatic transformation in the listeners mind. At first he was this weird inmate and now he's a human that's been through a lot and you actually care about. Fascinating. And Dr. You were just saying something in our chat here on Riverside. There was some sound effect that caught your attention. Yeah, it distracted me because it sounded a tiny little bit like a, a cat purr, something like that. And I kept fixating on it like what? What? Well, I'm, I'm a cat person, so I would naturally go to it, but I kind of didn't hear what the person said because I was like, what is that sound? Why is that sound there?

41:30 I don't understand. Yeah, I'm not sure. I heard it the first time and I don't know, maybe that's supposed to be the sound of the dragon. I don't know. Can you? Can you play it again and see if anyone picks it up? Answer is pure approach. I want to hear that. If I could be an animal, any animal, it would be a wish dragon that would only appear when a kid needed it, because my experience with imaginary friends, they were needed. So the thing about being a dragon is they eat meat, and I couldn't do that. I hear it and I feel like it's actually like a just a little drum roll kind of thing. I think that's all it is. Yeah. Interesting BC did you want to ask something or say something?

42:12 I'm not aware of any kind of dragon archetype where they purr. The closest I can think of is maybe the the Good Luck Dragon from Never Ending Story, but that's like that's a really out of way concept there but. Yeah, fair enough. OK, fair enough. I was grasping at straws. What can I tell you? Jonathan, back to you. Let's talk a little bit about what makes this obsession worthy. And I think the most important point that I have on this one is clarity plus humanity makes it bingeable or obsession worthy, whichever you want to call it. When you're clear and you've got a human element, people are going to want to listen. They want to lean in and and learn more about these people, about the situation and that makes it bingeable.

42:53 And I mean, after listening to this episode, I would tune into another episode. I've listened to actually like 20 or 30 of this show, so I have actually binged. And many of the ones that I call obsession worthy, I'll listen to a few of them as I'm prepping for the thing, but I don't always go back to them. This one I did. It uses emotional contrast, curiosity loops, processes, drama, the universal themes, and then this identity shift that happens at the end. And all of those things are really powerful ways to connect with your audience. They're emotional, they're powerful, and they allow you to see the difference between, you know, the beginning and the end. And that helps people really connect with with the whole thing. So those are things that we should keep in mind when we're creating our own podcasts.

43:39 Are we using emotional contrast, curiosity loops and things like that? Yeah, 100%. And Jonathan, before you go on, I think Ashley wanted to chime in as well. Go ahead, Ashley. I think another thing that worked well for this show is pay attention to the length. They told a whole story, and I don't feel like we missed out on anything in 24 minutes. I listened to this show while I was driving and it was perfect because I was able to complete the whole drive and listen to the whole episode within 24 minutes. So I think there's something to be said about, you know, the size that we package our stories and how effective that can be. Yep, I'm with you there 100%. Ralph wants to comment as well.

44:19 Go ahead, Ralph. And maybe I missed this, but I think they also missed an opportunity to tell more of Roach's story. They told the story at the beginning about what happened with his mom and all, but I don't know that they mention why he was incarcerated. Did they talk about the struggles that he had? Because I felt like if they did, I missed it. And maybe that's just because I wasn't keyed into it, but I felt like they could have really reinforced that because I didn't. And maybe it's just me, but I didn't get that strong take away from that. And I think there was a huge opportunity to talk about, because it's funny after, after listening to that, I, I went on to ChatGPT and I said, what we're really talking about here is willful emotional neglect. And I leaned into that because in my own life, I feel that sometimes and I'm not incarcerated, thank God, but I, I felt about that.

45:06 And I think that that would have been a real interesting way to pivot this a little bit and to really talk about the human side because they did a great job on all the rest of it. But I just, I didn't have that take away that I think they could have gotten in that story had they had they really thought about a little bit deeper. I hear what you're saying and I'm going to challenge it just a little bit because I wonder if we as an audience or yeah, an audience in general, I wonder if they would lose interest or not feel as connected if we knew going in that this guy, apparently according to BC, this guy is in prison for murder, second degree, right?

45:47 Like would that would that maybe pull us out and make some of us say, well, I don't really care about this guy's story because he he's a murderer. Maybe that's going to distract from the story, the human side, if we share that kind of information. What do you think about that, Ralph? Yeah, I think that's valid. But I also think that I left with, well, tell me a little bit more of his story because I want to endear to this guy. I want to connect to this guy. Listen, if he's in jail, if he's in San Quentin, I'm assuming he didn't do a nice thing. So I'm just I'm just making that assumption. So paint the picture for me a little bit deeper and maybe they did and I just didn't, I didn't connect to it.

46:27 But Mark, I think what you're saying is valid, but at the same time, I think it leaves a piece of the story out because honestly, I went into it with the expectation that I'm not going to like this guy. I'm just being honest with you. My bias before I even click play was I'm not going to like this guy. This dudes in prison, He got there for a purpose. Now we're providing for his food, clothing and shelter. And that annoys me. I'm just being blunt, but I didn't feel that at the end. And I felt like, you know, you could have really sold Ralph if you just gave me a little bit more of that story about where he's at, what's changed in his life. Because like I said, I connected with the dude that I wasn't expecting to connect with. Thank you, Ralph. Yeah. It was mentioned, but the other thing that I wanted to point out is there's 200 some odd episodes of this and leavings details out makes you want to listen for more. And I think that's something that is key because they do have there's 200, almost 300 episodes, I believe, of this podcast.

47:20 So he may appear again and you might get a little bit more of a story and that builds the connection between the episodes and brings the audience back for more. Excellent point. Yeah, Thank you. Jonathan BC Did you want to add anything I. Was going to say I think it was really quick too because it was a Roach himself I believe. Who mentioned his reason for incarceration? They kind of brought him in, talking about Roach out in the yard. He has this funny habit of while he's drawing that, of smelling his, his braids or his locks. And then he introduces himself saying, yeah, I do that. I put different oils on my hair and I like to smell them while I'm drawing out in the yard. And he I think really kind of quickly mentions, but also kind of breezes by his reason for incarceration.

48:00 Jonathan might recall a bit more intricately than I do, but it's super quick. So if you if you listen don't listen for like 2 seconds, you will miss it. Thank you BCDR. Did you want to add on? I think if I were producing this particular episode, 1 of the things that I loved about this episode that I'm going to be taking away and thinking again about the episodes that I produce now for my clients is they put the Stinger at the end of the show as a for this is what's going to be on next week. And they put a Stinger a sound clip from the next episode on this episode. So I think if I was producing this episode, I probably would have made it all about Roach and his story, not about the animals.

48:49 The animals, his love for the animals got us kind of hooked into Roach. Now I want to know more about him. So that's next episode might have been about his journey and that's probably what I would have done. But the Stinger at the end or the, the little sound clip of the next episode that people will hear, it was really powerful to me. And I, I think that's something I'm, I'm really taking away from this. I like that, yeah. Because a lot of times, at least we here talk about putting those little, those little clips at the beginning to tease the episode itself, right? Grab a highlight moment from the episode we're about to hear. Put that at the very beginning as a little teaser. But to your point, yeah, having a a clip for the next episode to play at the end would honestly, I think think would build a lot of intrigue and interest for the next story, the next episode. Yeah, good point, Dr. Thank you.

49:45 Ralph, did you want to add on? Yeah, and I was just going to say that at the end of an episode is is great real estate because you're not going to annoy somebody at that point. These are your true believers at the end. So you can put what you want at the end of an episode. In my opinion, that's a great place to put chat. That's a great place to the back and forth between the hosts. And it's also a great place for your true believers to hear about what's coming next. So I just, I champion what Dr. says. A lot of people get worried about adding stuff into their episode, but I think real estate wise, that's a great place to do it because those are your people who hung in there till the end. They suffered through the six minutes of commercials and and they got to the end and they're still there. So I think that that's where you really reward your active listeners, the participants who are really your true believers. Yeah, Thank you.

50:32 Ralph and Nikki, you wanted to add something? I'm going to add two things. One, I haven't listened to the full episode, so I was just listening to Ralph's point about the leaving the the actual crime out and the reason for why he was in jail. I think that was a fairpoint just because when I'm watching a movie or a documentary or I'm looking at something on social media in today's world, things are so highly edited that I don't trust when people post things. And especially if there's a very strong narrative that is pulling me in One Direction, it's it sets off a little bit of a yellow flag because not that it's bad, but it makes me think, what are they hiding?

51:16 What are they not showing? Why are they not telling me this information? Those are the thoughts that kind of run through my mind. And then the second thing is just by listening to these clips, the one thing that really stood out to me, and I just think that's so interesting that sometimes to connect with the feelings, the deep feelings of love and authenticity and who we really are as people, sometimes intense isolation is what we need. Now, we don't all have to be incarcerated, of course, but spending that time alone can really bring about some deep levels of self-awareness that we wouldn't have achieved just by, you know, distracting ourselves with social media and doing all the Super surface level. Absolutely.

51:56 I mean meditation, prayer, etcetera. Those are a lot of times those moments of quiet that we put ourselves in to reflect tooth to, yeah, learn more about us, right. Because it's it's those quiet moments that really allow us to process all of the noise, all of the things that are going through our heads. And, you know, that's why things like social media and phones and all that kind of stuff, it can be a real problem. It can really distract us from those moments of quiet so that we can process all of the different things that were that are thrown at us throughout our day and throughout our life. Absolutely. Nikki, I'm with you there.

52:37 Janae is on stage. Janae, did you want to add on to this Good morning, Really epic episode today? I really was pulled into the episode and what they're telling in the story and to the last point, and This is why I wanted to jump on stage when Dr. mentioned and Ralph Yo mentioned, you know, there they could have been some more rational stuff at the end of the episode. But we all think that we are rational human beings. But here's here's the rub and here's the twist. We're not we are very irrational. We're very emotional. And that's what they try to do at the end of the episode. Even though I didn't hear it right, because they put that irrational thing, you want to come back and listen to that irrational thing?

53:22 We all want to be rational human beings. But unfortunately, that's not the case. And that's why the episodes, the way that they've designed it works so well. Thanks. Yeah. Thank you, Janae. I think that's a great, great point to emphasize. We think we want rational, but we are, we tend to be attracted more to the irrational. Yeah. I'm with you, Dr. What was your question that you just asked here? I was just looking it up. So I think it's important, it's noteworthy to say that this particular episode, if people want to go back and listen to it right now, they are in in Season 16, Season 16. This episode was all the way back on Season 1 and it was episode #4. I think it was 3 actually. 3, episode number 3. OK, I'm going back after today's show. I'm going to go back and listen to something more current to see how much they've evolved.

54:16 It's just a natural progression that you would evolve after 16 seasons. So I'm curious to to listen to that. And the other narrator who was in jail at the time is now out of jail. Oh awesome. Re entering. Life Sid, go for it. So I didn't have anything to. Add about the episode other than I was saying Jonathan. This was a great 1 and I really appreciate you selecting this one. So I just wanted to say one other thing if I could. Mark, on Friday, I had my question about software to use and I just got two members of this community, specifically Ralph and Janae. Ralph shared in our group chat a resource where I could go and learn about ECAMM and I started watching all these videos of free resources. Absolutely amazing Ralph.

55:01 So thank you so much for sharing it. And I did decide to jump in with Ecam and I played around with it this weekend. And then I jumped on a call yesterday with Janae and he showed me some inner workings of how it all works. So I just wanted to say thank you to both of you and shout out to the community that this group is here to help you any way they possibly can. So thank you both. Thank you, Sid, and thank you for the follow up Glad. That this community rallies behind one another. Glad you got your help and curious to to watch and see what you've done. I was just talking about ECAM with Ralph this morning a little bit as an alternative way that we stream. No, no decisions made yet. But yeah, thank you, Sid. Jonathan, did you want to give us a final take away before I share my news? Just that the take away that I took from all of this is. One, you guys are incredibly detailed when it comes to podcasting, all of you.

55:53 But 2, when you make the process human and get on an identity shift, you're going to actually create this connection. It's more than just a story. It's something that people see themselves in, and that's a great way to keep them coming back to your show. Agreed. Thank you Jonathan for leading another. Excellent obsession where the podcast series episode. Appreciate you appreciate the content. I think it was really helpful and what I was going to to share with all of you is on Thursday I am out. Thursday and Friday the show will go on. As they say. Ralph is going to take over the first seat and lead the charge and the rest of the cast and crew will be here. I won't be here because this 52 year old guy is getting his wisdom teeth pulled on Thursday.

56:42 I have three of four with wisdom teeth remaining. I was given the option when I was 16 years old to either pull the one that had to be removed or pull them all at the same time while I was there. And I decided, well, let's just pull the one that needs to be removed. And completely regretting that decision now because now I got to go under the knife and get those other three removed. So Thursday and Friday I will be out of Commission. They say it's a three day recovery. We'll see what the following week brings to me and the following week could also bring to me jury duty, which I'm trying to get out of. I've I've put in a request due to my surgery hoping that they will accept that as a reason why I can't go. Otherwise it'll be an interesting week for me for sure.

57:29 Little swollen in jury duty and not here so I will have more about next week. But as far as this week goes I won't be here Thursday and Friday but the cast and crew will be here to keep things going. Ralph did or no? It was BC. Did you have something? Can you confirm if we'll be getting a post op video from the? Wifey, I can ask her for that. Sure, No problem. Yeah, while you're on that drug that you know. The anesthetics, yes, awesome. Yes, I'm going to be so. Disappointed if we don't get a video of you coming. Out of anesthesia. OK, OK, fine. I will tell her. Get a camera on me. Even though I really think all those tik toks and Instagram videos are all staged, I don't believe that those kids are really under that influence that badly.

58:18 Yes BC good. No, I got my wisdom teeth taken out in. High school, I came out of the operation singing Aria, so it's real. Thank you. There were no cameras, but I came. Out singing an opera, just for one. Yeah. OK. All right. Amy has a job. Yes. I will tell her today. To be prepared. OK, so we are back tomorrow, 7:00 AM Eastern talking news and comment. We will talk about all the headlines around the world of podcasting, headlines that are of interest to you, the content creator. So join us 7:00 AM Eastern live on Clubhouse, YouTube, LinkedIn, Facebook, all the places and you can get that information in the show notes or at podcasting Morning chat.com.

59:01 Until tomorrow, make it a great day everybody. Take care.