455. What ‘Ear Hustle’ Can Teach You About Storytelling

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Good morning podcasting, Morning
Chat.

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Today is Tuesday, February 17th,
2026, and today our obsession

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worthy podcast series continues
as we learn from ear hustles

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looking out, unpacking the
storytelling structure behind

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its binge ability and how you
can use it to deepen listener

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connection.
So if you're listening live on

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Clubhouse, hit the share button,
bottom left hand side of the

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screen and share it.
However, Clubhouse lets you.

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And if you're catching us via
podcast, YouTube, LinkedIn,

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please share this episode with a
fellow podcaster.

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And now give us about 30 seconds
and we'll get things rolling.

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Thanks for being here.
Good morning again podcasting

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morning chat.
Thanks so much for being here.

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I am your host Mark Ronick and
on stage with me we have my Co

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hosts Nick Naulback, producer
Ashley Feller, Dr. Faye, Sid

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Meadows, Ralph E Step, Jonathan
Howard and BC Babbles also on

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stage with us.
I know we call her Tide often

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but that's her name here on
Clubhouse.

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Her real name Nikki.
We have Nikki on stage with us

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and Alex Baelish has joined us
as well.

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Good to see everybody.
Hope you had a great Valentine's

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Day.
I'm going to get to Valentine's

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Day in a minute before we dive
into the Obsession Worthy

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podcast series 1st.
A happy 4th anniversary to the

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Podcasting Morning chat.
We celebrated that over this

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past weekend.
On Sunday, yes.

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Sunday I believe maybe, yeah.
Sunday, yes, 'cause Saturday was

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Valentine's Day.
So yeah, four years run in.

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And of course the podcasting
morning chat was a thing before

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I, we'll call it rebooted it,
but it, it was a thing solely on

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Clubhouse and it went away.
It kind of fizzled out.

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And I don't know, maybe about a
year later I kicked it back off

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solely on Clubhouse.
And it took me a year or two to

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finally recognize that you know
what, this is worth putting out

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as a podcast too.
And the rest is history.

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We've had a lot of we've had a
lot of people come through these

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doors that have been significant
parts of it, some no longer

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here, some since the very
beginning.

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Sid being an example of being
one of the O GS from the that

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original PMC to the newer
version that I took over with

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Pedro four years ago.
So thank you all for really

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making this whole thing become
what it has become.

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It's turned into an in person
conferences.

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It's come, it's turned into
online relationships and offline

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for that matter.
And it's really been a very

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special project to say the
least, and now community.

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So thank you all.
And then yes, it was also

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Valentine's Day.
We didn't even acknowledge it on

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Friday.
I think we were so hyper focused

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on Friday the 13th and that
theme.

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But yeah, I hope everyone had a
great Valentine's weekend.

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Nick told me something that I
just wanted to get to briefly

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that I just think is really cool
and creative that he's been

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doing and that something he did
this Valentine's Day with his

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wife.
Nick, would you tell us what you

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did with your wife this weekend?
And it's apparently something

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that you're doing regularly now
as well.

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And nobody's minds in the
gutter.

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OK, what is it, Nick?
What are you guys up to for

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Valentine's Day?
This weekend, a couple of our

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friends, they own this house
that's like a, an Airbnb, but

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they, it's a pretty large house.
So they host a lot of events

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there.
And one of the events that they

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wanted to host was a murder
mystery.

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And we'd got to talk in like
discussing what you could

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possibly do for the murder
mystery.

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And they're basically like, we
want you guys to just do it.

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We want you to make it, We want
you to put it on, we want you to

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do it.
And they, they actually schedule

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like they created the event
before we even had anything

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started on this thing.
So they already started bringing

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in people.
So my wife and I, we made the

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murder mystery.
Like we developed the whole

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story, the clues, like all the
whole gameplay, all that stuff.

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And this weekend, Valentine's
Day, they had this event we put

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on the murder mystery and it
was, I think we had 51 people

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registered and it was like maybe
4 to 6 people that didn't

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actually show up.
So we had a massive group for

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this thing.
But yeah, it went extremely

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well.
A lot of people were like, Oh my

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gosh, you have to do this every
week.

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And we're like, absolutely not.
Regardless, we're going to end

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up doing more next week.
We're actually putting on the

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same murder mystery for a
different group.

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But then we are already in the
planning stages of the next

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mystery that will be coming in
the future.

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This is so cool.
So cool name.

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Yeah.
Are you guys?

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So how much AI are you using to
help you with this?

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Actually, like the bulk of the
story itself was not AI at all.

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It was pretty much entirely my
wife.

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Wow.
We went through a couple

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different like stages and
iterations.

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Like we started with AI and we
had like the seed of a story and

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we used AI to kind of help build
out a very rough draft of it and

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it helped with a lot of the
clues and like pinning down the

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gameplay and stuff like that, or
like giving us ideas for the

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gameplay.
But about what was it Monday, It

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was either Sunday or Monday
before we were hosting this

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thing.
My wife was going through all

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the stuff and she's like, I
absolutely hate it.

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And she went and rewrote the
entire thing from start to

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finish, all of the character
like groups and everything.

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Like it was pretty impressive.
So we used AI for something like

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the clean up stuff.
Like we had to develop 50

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character cards for people.
And we definitely used AI to

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help with that.
But yeah, a lot of it was very

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limited AI for the most part.
That is really cool.

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Thank you for sharing that.
Yeah.

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I saw a picture that you that
your wife posted of the two of

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you all dressed up in front of
the doors ready to start the

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murder mystery.
And I just thought you two were

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doing something together for
Valentine's Day.

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I didn't realize you guys were
actually putting on the event.

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So kudos to you guys.
That's really fun.

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Yeah, I think it's not a typical
Valentine's Day.

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Yeah.
I guess we're kind of those

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people.
We go to Halloween stuff for our

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anniversary and we put on murder
mysteries for Valentine's.

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Day.
I love it.

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Dr. has a question.
Go ahead, DRI.

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Think you guys should put out
like APDF or something on how

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people can plan one of these?
I mean it it never even occurred

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to me that there is a whole
planning process.

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I guess it did, but you just
don't think about what goes on

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behind the scenes on on getting
ready for this.

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This will be a second job
they'll be charging soon.

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I have a.
Feeling did you have like dinner

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or something?
Was there dinner served?

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Yeah, So one Alex, yes, they did
pay us to do this, so it's kind

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of cool.
It is like a second job now and

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we've been talking about that
like could be like a a little

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side hustle business thing that
we do.

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But yeah, it was like a whole
like night event.

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So when everyone got there, they
came in, they got their

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character cards, and then there
was like they had drinks being

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served and hors d'oeuvres and
stuff like that.

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So it was like a little social
hour when everyone got in and

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then kind of the theatrics came
in, a big speech was given and

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then the murder happens and then
everyone's kind of thrown into

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the gameplay.
I got to say that Valentine's

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Day is the perfect, perfect day
to have this.

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It takes pressure off of those
first dates.

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It's great for single women to
go to and it's great for couples

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to go to.
It is a perfect day for it.

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Yes, congratulations, Nick.
That's really fun.

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And yeah, I agree with Dr. The
the behind the scenes stuff

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could really be a thing.
It would be cool to watch on

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social media, seeing how people
put together these types of

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events.
Yeah, absolutely.

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I think that's very cool.
Cool, cool thing that you and

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your wife are doing, Nick, and
keep us posted on how that's

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going.
All right, let's shift gears and

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get into today's episode.
Obsession Worthy podcast series

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continues.
And today we're breaking down

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the show Ear Hustle.
Thanks to Jonathan Howard, who

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leads the charge on this
particular series.

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The episode we're digging into
is looking out.

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That's the name of it.
And Jonathan, before we dig in,

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I, you know, I know we do this
to study why shows like this

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earns repeat listening and how
indie podcasters can help apply

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the lessons.
If there's anything else that

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you want to add about this
series before we dig in, by all

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means, go for it.
And I've got all the clips ready

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to play as well.
Like you said, it's a lot of

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just finding why these
particular things work and what

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makes them special.
This particular episode, this is

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one of my favorite actual ones
that I've broken down because of

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the storytelling of it.
So we'll get into a little bit

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of that.
Awesome.

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Well, then let's dig in.
Again, the show is called Ear

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Hustle if you haven't heard of
it.

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And admittedly, I mean, I think
I've heard of it but never

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listened to it before.
And that and again, the

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episode's called Looking Out,
and we'll put a link in the show

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notes for our audience if they
want to go check out the full

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episode.
But take it away, Jonathan.

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All right, so just so you know
what the concept of the podcast

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is, it tells stories about life
inside of prison, but through

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like small human moments.
So this particular episode

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looking out, it's not about
prison politics.

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It's about caring for something
when the world feels hard.

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They're really human moments.
They're relatable.

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Even though we're not in prison,
we're relatable.

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And you can really connect with
the listener and they can

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understand what the story is and
the way that they do that.

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Just a quick note is through a
universal doorway.

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And the particular one for this
episode is the need to nurture,

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the need to be needed, and the
need for unconditional love.

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So things that we all feel, and
those are really powerful

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emotions that we're feeling.
It's not about issues.

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It's about intimacy and
connection and human lives.

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And that's the relatability
factor right there, right?

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It doesn't matter whether you're
in prison or or not.

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What's important, yeah, is that
human connection that I think we

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all need and desire for sure.
This particular episode, one

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thing that does is it flips the
expectations immediately.

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You expect tension, but you get
tenderness and you expect things

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in survival mode, but you get
someone who cares for birds.

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The hook is the emotional
contrast and the and the

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curiosity gap.
So it's the difference between

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what we know and what we can
learn.

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So that kind of leads us into
the first clip.

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I do want to make a note on the
production, though.

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The production sets the scene in
this podcast.

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There's ambient prison noise,
but also clean narration and

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alternating perspectives, which
makes which makes it feel alive.

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And then there's tight editing,
no wasted space, which gives it

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movement.
And then both of the narrators

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are guides on this on this show.
So let's jump into that first

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clip.
Mark, We start in an unexpected

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place for a prison based
podcast.

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I love animals.
Oh yeah.

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Since I've been in prison, I've
had black widows, tarantulas, a

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lot of grasshoppers, beetles.
At San Quentin, inmates aren't

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allowed to have pets, but some
guys get creative, like Rocher.

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Gophers, rabbits.
I had four swallows, a toad,

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praying mantis, 21 snails, frog,
red breasted Finch whose arm

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broke.
I had a desert mold that was

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partially paralyzed.
Tape your hamster.

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Just really lazy with an
attitude.

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The centipede, and it was a
wolf.

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It was a bad little monster.
I had two fish that had babies.

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Twice I had a tarantula broke
out, one time, Marcelli said.

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Yo Spider got out.
And I love the sound, the way

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that, like you pointed out, the
production, the sound kind of

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00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:08,400
that eerie drone type music
that's playing behind it, even

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00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:11,600
though it kind of feels fun and
silly, or at least it could be

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00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:14,520
in some ways.
In other ways, Obviously there's

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00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:16,520
a sadness that goes with that
too, right?

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00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:19,760
It's like they have to make up
these companionships, these

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these relationships with these
quote UN quote pets.

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But yeah, it's I, I love the
production value, Jonathan.

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00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:29,000
Yeah, the production value is is
fantastic.

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And this clip is like all the
following.

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00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:35,040
It's weird, it's unexpected,
it's visual, it's a little bit

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00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:38,520
concerning, it's oddly charming,
and it's also a little bit

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disconnected from what we would
expect, which causes us all to

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00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:46,360
have that moment of leaning in
and seeing what happens.

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00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:48,800
Because at this point, we don't
even know what's going to happen

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00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:52,000
to the escaped spider.
So we just want to know a little

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00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:54,320
bit more.
It's an interesting and unique

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00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:58,120
way to start a podcast.
So, and Jonathan, we've got a

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00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:01,720
couple of people that want to
chime in here as well, Ralph and

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00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:03,760
BC.
So let's check in with Ralph

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00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:06,000
first.
And a reminder to anybody on

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00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:08,880
stage on Clubhouse or if you're
listening in the audience and

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00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:11,440
you want to be a part of this
conversation, raise your hand,

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00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:14,520
come on up, put it in the chat
however you feel most

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00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:17,680
comfortable participating.
We want to hear from you.

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00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:18,800
Go for it, Ralph.
Good.

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00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:19,320
Morning.
Yeah.

253
00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:21,440
Good morning, everybody.
Jonathan, I just want to say

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00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:24,200
when I started to listen to
this, it was not at all what I

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00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:26,600
expected.
I'm starting to think, OK, well,

256
00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:28,160
this is going to be about people
in prison.

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00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:30,240
And I'm like, I don't have a lot
of sympathy for people in

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00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:32,720
prison.
You know, big deal, who cares?

259
00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:35,400
And then as soon as it launches
and I was like, wait a minute, I

260
00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:38,000
was working while I was
listening to this and I and I

261
00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:39,800
found myself just enthralled by
the thing.

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00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:41,120
I was like, oh, I got to listen
to this.

263
00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:43,840
I'm a pet person.
I raise cows here on the farm

264
00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:45,160
and we've got a dog and all that
stuff.

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00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:46,600
So it immediately connected with
me.

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00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:49,480
But you're right, dude, it was
not what I was expecting.

267
00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:52,440
So great job they did leading
into that because I was

268
00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:54,960
expecting one thing, it got
something completely different.

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00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:57,880
Yeah, absolutely.
BC hold your thought for a

270
00:14:57,880 --> 00:14:59,520
second.
I'm going to jump to Sid and

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00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:01,080
then I'm going to come to you
next.

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00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:03,120
Go ahead, Sid.
I just want to echo a little bit

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00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:05,280
of what Ralph said.
I mean, I thought this was a

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00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:08,680
great episode, Jonathan.
It's a great show to highlight.

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And one of the things that I
appreciate about this one is

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00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:15,520
this is not a celebrity.
This is not something that we

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00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:17,240
know of.
It's, you know, getting millions

278
00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:20,680
of views her episode.
So I like the fact that this

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00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:24,320
appears to be a bit more on the
independent side, but yet it's a

280
00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:26,480
great example of what can be
done.

281
00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:29,520
And you mentioned it earlier,
the sound design on this was

282
00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:31,960
just really cool.
Yeah, really cool.

283
00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:35,600
And also I think done
tastefully, right, like they're

284
00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:39,000
not overdoing the sound effects.
It's not every moment we're

285
00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:40,120
getting a different sound
effect.

286
00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:44,160
They're using it thoughtfully.
They're sprinkling it in to

287
00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:49,600
really help that moment sink in
for you as a listener BC what

288
00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:52,200
did you want to add?
Yeah, I want to also say just

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00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:55,760
the structure of this show, I'm
going off of that as well, is so

290
00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:58,200
cool.
I like the fact that, you know,

291
00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:01,080
we're not just hearing about
this character called the Roche.

292
00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:04,560
We just these people get to come
in with their segments and help

293
00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:09,280
illuminate certain introduced
topics or introduced a little

294
00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:12,000
segments that 2 main narrators
provide to us.

295
00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:15,480
And I want to say this being
very respectful of the gravity

296
00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:17,160
of everyone's situation in the
show.

297
00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:21,600
But listening to the episode
reminded me of a basically a non

298
00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:24,800
musical version of Cellblock
Tango from Chicago.

299
00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:28,200
Kind of how everyone gets a
chance to come in, discuss how

300
00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:30,680
they ended up in prison, what
they're there for, their

301
00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:34,000
perspective on their story.
And it just kind of seems like a

302
00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:37,440
it's got a similar vibe and kind
of structure, minus the music

303
00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:40,000
and the dancing, of course, but
that was kind of how I was

304
00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:41,600
perceiving the episode as it
went on.

305
00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:44,280
Yeah, thank you, BC, Appreciate
that.

306
00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:48,440
By the way, if you want to see
Ralph, if you want to see BC

307
00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:53,520
chiming in, or Jonathan for that
matter, they're with me live on

308
00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:57,920
video right now on YouTube,
LinkedIn, Facebook, etcetera.

309
00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:01,360
But if you want to see us on
YouTube, since we were just

310
00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:04,839
talking this morning how things
are growing over there, why

311
00:17:04,839 --> 00:17:06,040
don't you come join us?
Just go to

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00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:11,440
podcastingmorningchat.com/youtube
and come join us and see these

313
00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:14,359
lovely faces.
OK, Jonathan, what do we got

314
00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:16,760
next?
Well, I love that we were

315
00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:19,800
talking about Tango, but the
couple things that I wanted to

316
00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:24,400
point out about this is the
pacing and the tenderness of the

317
00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:28,440
the particular clip here.
You feel for Roach.

318
00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:30,280
All of a sudden you're you're
expecting to hear from a

319
00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:33,680
prisoner and then you're feeling
like a connection right away

320
00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:37,280
from a real human, a slightly
weird human, but a real human.

321
00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:40,080
And the reason that this
actually works as a beginning is

322
00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:42,080
because we don't know where it's
going.

323
00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:45,280
So we lean in for a little bit
more of this because we don't

324
00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:46,760
know what's going to happen
next.

325
00:17:47,120 --> 00:17:51,320
So how I want to I just want to
point out that we can use this

326
00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:53,000
particular opening for
ourselves.

327
00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:56,640
Start with something specific
but surprising because details

328
00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:59,200
build trust much faster than
explanation.

329
00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:03,240
So try doing something a little
bit outside the box to start

330
00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:05,920
your podcast.
Let's listen to a little bit

331
00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:09,040
more about this human who goes
by the name of Roach.

332
00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:12,200
And let me ask you before I hit
play on that, Jonathan, do we

333
00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:17,360
know are these the, is he the
real person or is this an actor

334
00:18:17,360 --> 00:18:20,160
playing the person?
That's a great question.

335
00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:23,720
And actually, just so you guys
know, one of the narrators is

336
00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:26,320
not in prison.
One of the narrators is

337
00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:30,680
imprisoned.
Erlon is the man that works that

338
00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:34,320
is in prison and the female is
not.

339
00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:35,640
She works at the prison.
OK.

340
00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:37,760
Oh, interesting.
That's really fascinating.

341
00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:39,960
So real people.
Yeah, alright, here's that clip.

342
00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:44,200
My name is Ronald Draper, but I
go by Roach.

343
00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:47,960
My relationship with people is
pretty strained.

344
00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:51,840
I don't trust them.
From early on they they have

345
00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:55,760
been a source of pain for me.
So Roach is about 40 years old.

346
00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:58,240
And he's a pretty shy guy.
Until you know him.

347
00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:03,560
When I was a child, before I was
removed from the care of my

348
00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:06,640
mom's custody, she tried to
drown me a couple times in the

349
00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:11,160
tub and then she stopped and she
left the bathroom and she was

350
00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:16,680
crying.
I I knew she was unhappy or sad

351
00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:21,480
at some I did.
I wanted to actually comfort her

352
00:19:22,120 --> 00:19:27,760
but I didn't know how to do it.
I don't remember her face and I

353
00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:33,240
haven't seen her since.
Roach said he was six or seven

354
00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:36,240
years old before he had his
first real connection with a

355
00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:38,400
person.
We meet the real person in this

356
00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:41,520
clip right off the bat, somebody
who's had a strained

357
00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:44,400
relationship with people and has
a lot of trauma in his past.

358
00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:47,120
So the animals are no longer
random.

359
00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:50,440
They're his security blanket
because they're safer than

360
00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:54,240
people.
So we feel that immediately to

361
00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:57,040
him, the animals are safer than
people, and that's the emotional

362
00:19:57,040 --> 00:20:00,720
driver in this episode.
So clip one makes us curious, so

363
00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:04,440
we lean in, and clip 2 makes us
stick around.

364
00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:08,000
So it becomes more than just a
curious inmate, it's now a

365
00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:11,280
person that we care about and a
person that has had a troubled

366
00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:14,400
past.
I really, what I really like

367
00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:21,000
about this whole format is the
fact that it's storytelling, but

368
00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:25,280
it feels a lot like more of a
typical podcast in the sense

369
00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:28,320
that it's very conversational.
You have two hosts, they're

370
00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:31,800
chatting with one another, but
it is very intentional

371
00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:35,240
storytelling.
So as a podcaster, that's

372
00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:38,000
interesting to me.
It's intriguing.

373
00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:42,520
It makes me think about, you
know, how we how we handle these

374
00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:46,280
different interviews that we
have on our podcasts and how we

375
00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:49,840
can make them more dynamic.
And I think ear hustles

376
00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:53,400
certainly made this very dynamic
already so far.

377
00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:56,440
So I don't know if anybody has
anything that they want to say

378
00:20:56,440 --> 00:21:00,160
about this particular clip.
I think that this highlights for

379
00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:06,000
us that just that little clip
that everybody has a story, and

380
00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:08,800
some stories lead to really
great things, some stories lead

381
00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:10,920
to troubling things.
And I think it just reminds us

382
00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:14,800
that everybody's got a story and
they should share their story.

383
00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:19,480
And I think that this also to a
degree, humanizes the people

384
00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:23,760
that are behind bars, right?
Makes him a lot more relatable

385
00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:27,320
than what we would typically
think or where our minds would

386
00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:28,480
go.
And we hear about somebody

387
00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:30,960
that's actually in prison.
So I really appreciate the fact

388
00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:35,080
that it humanized him and that
everybody just, again, it

389
00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:36,760
highlights that everybody has a
story.

390
00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:41,240
Agreed, and I think Yvonne is
pointing out something similar

391
00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:44,840
she's saying in the chat here.
Suddenly he's a human we we can

392
00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:48,840
relate to instead of curiosity
or just a weird person.

393
00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:51,400
And that's another side note
too, right?

394
00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:55,240
It's like it's easy for us to
judge people and say that

395
00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:58,440
they're weird, right?
But then the moment we started

396
00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:05,760
to learn why this particular
person befriends these insects,

397
00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:09,240
rodents, etcetera, we learn it's
because of his strained

398
00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:13,440
relationship with human beings.
It, it gives us a reason to the

399
00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:16,360
weirdness, quote UN quote.
And now it doesn't feel terribly

400
00:22:16,360 --> 00:22:19,200
weird to me anymore.
Now it makes sense.

401
00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:23,640
And I think that's a great tip
for us to learn as interviewers,

402
00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:28,920
as storytellers, really how to
connect with the the character

403
00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:33,000
of the story 1st and then to
really reveal what makes that

404
00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:36,560
character tick.
BCI think you wanted to chime in

405
00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:38,720
as well.
Going off of what SO was talking

406
00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:42,360
about, and there was also a
quick mention in the earlier

407
00:22:42,360 --> 00:22:45,080
part of the story, I think from
the male narrator, where he

408
00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:49,360
mentions that this particular
prison is as a nice change of

409
00:22:49,360 --> 00:22:52,080
what we typically hear about.
The prison system is actually

410
00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:55,760
built better for rehabilitation,
which I think is a good thing to

411
00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:57,120
hear.
And now I don't know if

412
00:22:57,120 --> 00:23:00,400
Jonathan's going to play a clip
that kind of re mentions the

413
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:02,320
snails.
I don't know if you can like

414
00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:04,800
give a quick nod, but there's a
moment with the snails where

415
00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:07,960
they talk about how certain CE
OS treat the situation's

416
00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:11,240
differently and how some of the
pets have been like tossed out

417
00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:13,800
and whatnot because of a clean
health concern.

418
00:23:14,120 --> 00:23:17,000
When he mentioned that, I got a
little worried having heard his

419
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:19,400
background thinking oh God I
hope he doesn't have a look.

420
00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:23,000
I hope his CEO is not a Percy
and that's a reference to the

421
00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:25,200
Green Mile character for anyone
who's not seen Green Mile.

422
00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:27,720
Because I would hate for this
guy to have gone through what he

423
00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:32,440
did prior to prison just to find
these security blankets that he

424
00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:36,480
has in these smaller living
creatures just to get a Percy as

425
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:40,680
a COI would hate that from.
That's just my two cents there.

426
00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:42,720
Yeah.
And I don't remember if I have

427
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:45,800
the clip with the snails.
I know it, it's close to one of

428
00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:47,960
the clips that I pulled, but I
don't know if it is included.

429
00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:50,200
But yeah, if it is, we'll talk
about it.

430
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:55,520
Let's go to Nikki, AKA Tide.
Nikki, good morning to you.

431
00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:57,880
What did you want to add?
When I was listening to the

432
00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:01,520
clip, I heard water and it
sounded like the dripping

433
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:03,600
faucet.
I'm sure you got heard it as

434
00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:05,840
well.
And when I heard that, my

435
00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:08,960
immediate instinct was to say,
why did they have water in the

436
00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:10,840
background?
And what does that have to do

437
00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:13,600
with like a prison system?
I didn't understand what the

438
00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:16,720
sound effect was for.
But then immediately right after

439
00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:20,200
that, when he talked about how
his mother tried to drown him, I

440
00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:23,640
was like, Oh my gosh, what
incredible foreshadow.

441
00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:26,600
And it wasn't overdone.
It wasn't like the faucet fully

442
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:30,960
turned on, which may have been a
bit much or overkill, but the

443
00:24:31,120 --> 00:24:33,600
the dripping faucet was
incredibly impactful.

444
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:36,800
And what a great connection
there, too, because quite

445
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:39,280
frankly, I wasn't even making
that connection.

446
00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:43,040
Heard the sound of X, heard the
story and didn't put two and two

447
00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:45,120
together.
But now that you say that it is

448
00:24:45,120 --> 00:24:48,680
real, it's brilliant the way
that they did that, I think.

449
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:50,760
Yeah, I'm just thinking that
through.

450
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:53,000
Yeah.
The idea of the foreshadowing,

451
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:56,960
that foreshadowing, if you watch
any good movie, you'll find a

452
00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:00,800
lot of foreshadowing if you pay
attention throughout that

453
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:02,960
storytelling.
Yeah, great point.

454
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:07,360
Tide or Nikki and BC.
Did you have something else you

455
00:25:07,360 --> 00:25:08,920
wanted to add?
Yeah.

456
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:11,000
And going off of it, that's a
great, I'm going to use a

457
00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:15,120
cinematic term here, Meson Song
bit there because I think the

458
00:25:15,120 --> 00:25:18,680
fact that it's a dripping
fountain or whatever it is, as

459
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:20,040
opposed to like a fully running
one.

460
00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:23,400
When we think of dripping water,
it's usually after something's

461
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:26,640
been used, like an after an
attempt of something or after an

462
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:29,400
action of something.
So I think the fact that to

463
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:33,320
Tides one that was dripping
gives us the sensation that

464
00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:37,120
something occurred and it's not
a good moment.

465
00:25:37,120 --> 00:25:40,880
And then to come in with his
story about his mother to Tides

466
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:42,920
one just makes it so much more
impactful.

467
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:45,600
Agreed.
And Dr. Did you want to say what

468
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:47,960
you put in our little private
chat here on Riverside?

469
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:52,360
It just shows you because the
dripping was at a volume, it was

470
00:25:52,360 --> 00:25:56,160
a very low volume.
It was like in the back, way,

471
00:25:56,160 --> 00:26:00,360
way in the back, you heard
something and it just goes to

472
00:26:00,360 --> 00:26:06,120
show you that just a tiny little
bit of a thing has such a huge

473
00:26:06,120 --> 00:26:07,680
impact.
Agreed.

474
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:09,080
Absolutely.
Yeah.

475
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:10,920
All right, Jonathan, let's keep
it going.

476
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:13,360
This clip, the one thing that I
did want to point out and I

477
00:26:13,360 --> 00:26:16,160
talked about it earlier is this
is where the universal doorway

478
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:20,440
shows up.
It's about a person wanting

479
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:23,640
connection, a person wanting
something to love, a person

480
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:27,440
feeling safe, loving something.
So this episode goes from a

481
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:31,640
prisoner to It can be about you
very, very quickly.

482
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:34,560
And that's what that Universal
Doorway does, is it allows it to

483
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:38,680
be about the listener and what
they're feeling in the moment as

484
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:42,760
the other stories being told.
So that's that second clip.

485
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:44,320
The third clip.
I don't know why I'm losing my

486
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:47,560
voice, but if I always talk
about the messy middle, this is

487
00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:50,360
kind of part of the messy middle
and what we learn from the

488
00:26:50,360 --> 00:26:53,240
middle, his life and the whole
process that they're going

489
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:54,880
through.
So that's the third clip.

490
00:26:54,960 --> 00:27:01,160
Here it comes.
One time I had 4 swallows at

491
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:05,040
once and they end up dying that
year.

492
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:08,600
I think I lost maybe 10 along
the building.

493
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:11,960
They would always fall down and
people would come get me a got

494
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:13,680
some more, got some more, got
some more.

495
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:17,480
And so I had to smuggle them
into the building and then they

496
00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:20,520
would look really strong.
They would even look like they

497
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:22,960
were doing well.
But I would leave and come back

498
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:24,880
and then one will be down to
will be down.

499
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:30,240
I found out they end up dying
because they needed to be

500
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:35,760
touched and to feel a connection
with some mother with the

501
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:39,320
parent.
So when I have to take care of

502
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:42,160
another baby, swallow oh it will
happen again.

503
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:46,480
I will keep it in my shirt
pocket on my person so it can

504
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:52,360
hear my heartbeat and my voice
and feel connected and nurture.

505
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:56,200
Wow.
Obviously there's a connection

506
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:59,040
between the swallows needing
that attention, needing that

507
00:27:59,960 --> 00:28:03,360
mothering that he didn't get
that he's now providing for the

508
00:28:03,360 --> 00:28:06,320
birds.
And he learning that is a very

509
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,920
powerful like in in a couple
seconds.

510
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:14,800
You feel that they need me kind
of like I needed my mother and I

511
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:18,200
didn't get her.
Really beautiful symbolism there

512
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:21,200
and just well done.
We hear about the process.

513
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:23,240
We hear about them feeding the
birds and protecting them,

514
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:24,520
carrying them in the shirt
pocket.

515
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:27,280
And this really shows us that he
cares.

516
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:31,400
We're not told he cares.
We see that in his actions and

517
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:36,000
that's something that's another
really strong storytelling tool.

518
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:38,360
And this is kind of, it's
receipt based storytelling.

519
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:41,960
It's really this is what
happened and you can see it.

520
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,240
We don't have to explain it.
You're seeing it happen.

521
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:49,360
I think this is also a great way
to, you know, what is see a

522
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:52,520
perhaps a contradiction to what
might be a more common

523
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:55,360
assumption for someone with
roaches background.

524
00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:57,600
You know, I think a lot of
people might assume that because

525
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:00,320
of this experience with his mom,
which resulted in his huge

526
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:03,720
distrust of people, that he just
wouldn't have an affectionate

527
00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:06,760
bone in his body.
But the fact that he is trying

528
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:12,040
to showcase his desire for that
warmth, that comfort by

529
00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:17,680
providing it to these pets of
his is a great kind of element

530
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:20,080
of almost of hope for the for
the, for the character, for the

531
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:23,120
person behind the character,
which I just think it's a really

532
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:25,840
great kind of breath of fresh
air for this kind of story.

533
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:29,840
Absolutely agreed.
And good to have BC here just

534
00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:33,960
from that movie side of things,
right the his perspective.

535
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:37,200
I think that's really helpful
for these conversations because

536
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:39,800
the yeah, podcast is not a
movie, but storytelling is

537
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:42,280
storytelling.
It can be applied no matter what

538
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:44,960
medium you're using.
So yeah, thanks for your

539
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:47,560
insights as well.
BC Jonathan, back to you.

540
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:50,160
This really shows us why the
process matters.

541
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:52,680
In every Obsession Worthy
podcast, I talk about the messy

542
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:54,480
middle because it's where we
bond.

543
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:56,840
It's where we hear about the
work and the friction and the

544
00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:59,560
things that go right, the things
that go wrong and you feel like

545
00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:01,240
you're there in that moment with
them.

546
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:04,480
That's why the messy middle is
so powerful because relatability

547
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:07,840
lives in the process.
Relatability lives in the things

548
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:09,720
that are going on, the things
that you do.

549
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:13,800
It's not about the outcome, it's
about what how you got to that

550
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:16,200
outcome.
That messy middle is something

551
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:18,360
I'll always talk about and why
it's so important because it's

552
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:23,160
where we connect and we can hit
the 4th clip where he names the

553
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:26,440
reason that this episode is
powerful and why he cares for

554
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:28,600
the animals in very plain
language.

555
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:33,280
I take care of animals because
they teach me what I can't learn

556
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:37,520
from people.
It's unconditional affection or

557
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:41,560
appreciation.
It's unconditional love,

558
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:44,160
affection.
It's what he never got from

559
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:46,320
humans, he gets from the
animals.

560
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:49,240
Very plain language, but that's
what the podcast is about.

561
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:53,080
This particular episode is that
one thing.

562
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:57,360
And I think that's a really
important lesson as well for all

563
00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:02,480
of us is when we're constructing
our episodes, the idea and the

564
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:06,280
layout of the episode, are we
asking ourselves what's that

565
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:10,000
emotional truth that the
audience is going to walk away

566
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:13,160
with?
Because it does all come down to

567
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:15,120
emotion.
If you want to build your

568
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:18,800
audience, make your podcast
obsession worthy, binge able,

569
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:23,120
however you want to call it,
it's when we can bring out

570
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:28,280
emotion in our audience.
And that's why a lot of times we

571
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:32,760
encourage people to share, you
know, when they're first, when a

572
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:37,640
listener first presses play and
we say 1 strategy is to ask them

573
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:40,200
a question.
And that question is meant, in

574
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:44,640
my opinion, to pull at that
emotional, at those emotional

575
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:48,120
strings.
It's to help people recognize

576
00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:50,800
that we understand the pain
point.

577
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:56,200
We see the pain point, we see
them and that we're here to

578
00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:01,080
address it and hopefully add
some clarity, some solutions to

579
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:03,800
the problem, right?
But whatever it is, I think it's

580
00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:07,800
so important for us to always
ask what that emotional truth is

581
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,040
that we want our audience to
walk away with.

582
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:12,880
Ralph, what do you got?
I want to say something a little

583
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:16,200
contrarian, Jonathan, I and I
sort of had a side chat about

584
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:18,320
this.
The thing that took away from

585
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:22,640
this episode for me was the
silly advertisements in it that

586
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:26,640
really diminished the message.
And, and I, and I just want to

587
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:29,280
talk about that because it's
clear that this is a network

588
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:32,560
show, PRX or something like
that, but the placement of the

589
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:36,760
ads just diminished the overall
take away that I had from the

590
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:38,560
episode.
And I want to bring it up

591
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:41,000
because it's a great episode.
It connected to me at a human

592
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:44,400
level, but the PR not, and I'm
not picking on PRX, but the

593
00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:47,440
advertisement, the placement of
them just diminished from that.

594
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:50,120
And it wasn't just that there
was ads, it was the ads.

595
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:53,400
It just didn't make any sense.
They were just silly ads.

596
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:55,760
I think, Jonathan, you might
want to mention the one ad that

597
00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:58,000
you and I both said, well, that
doesn't make any sense at all.

598
00:32:58,400 --> 00:32:59,840
Anyway, I'm the money guy,
right?

599
00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:03,120
So I appreciate they want to
make money at this, but be

600
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:05,920
sensible in what you're
promoting because it just

601
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:08,440
completely it took away from the
message.

602
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:12,720
Ralph, do you think, now I know
this isn't necessarily a podcast

603
00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:16,960
you would go to normally, but
does something like that?

604
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:20,960
Do you think you make a
judgement and decide after the

605
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:23,480
fact?
Like OK yeah, good podcast but I

606
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:27,560
can't keep listening to new
episodes because the ads drive

607
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:29,760
me nuts.
Yeah, well, I would listen to it

608
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:33,080
again, to be honest with you.
But the ads just, and it just

609
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:35,600
seems like, and this isn't a
picking on Jonathan, but the

610
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:38,160
obsession where they seem to be
riddled with these ads.

611
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:39,480
And I get it, they're cashing
in.

612
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:42,760
I totally get it, but I'm also
thinking about the viewer and or

613
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:45,320
the listener or the viewer,
whichever one we're picking and

614
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:47,960
saying, Do you realize how much
you're diminishing that?

615
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:51,600
Because I, I don't know that we
realize that there may be a

616
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:55,480
better way to promote to get
money from this.

617
00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:57,640
Listen, I'm a capitalist.
I totally get making money.

618
00:33:57,640 --> 00:33:59,920
It's fantastic.
And this is something we can all

619
00:33:59,920 --> 00:34:03,080
take away from it.
When we seek to cash in, we got

620
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:05,880
to be willing to accept that
we're going to lose some

621
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:07,600
viewers, we're going to lose an
audience.

622
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:11,000
That's my point, Mark, is did it
make it so I didn't want to

623
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:12,360
listen to it again?
No, not at all.

624
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:15,159
But it did diminish the
experience for me.

625
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:17,719
Yeah.
And when we think about, let's

626
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:22,000
say, TV as an example, right,
because TV does a lot of

627
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:25,920
storytelling and they're
different shows and they have

628
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:29,320
commercials all the time, right?
And I think that maybe the

629
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:33,960
lesson here is if we're going to
put ads into our podcast, we got

630
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:37,199
to be strategic about it.
We got to you know, from both

631
00:34:37,199 --> 00:34:41,920
what point in the story is this
a good spot to pause right and

632
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:45,760
then also to finding the right
fit ads.

633
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:48,080
That doesn't make it feel so
jarring.

634
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:52,040
That doesn't completely pull us
out of the story altogether like

635
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:54,679
Ralph is describing.
I agree with you, Ralph, Like,

636
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:59,560
and I think that this show does
a great job of host doing host

637
00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:02,400
read ads.
Like, I think that's really key,

638
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:06,000
especially in a storytelling
podcast, because it does kind of

639
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:09,200
keep me in a little bit longer
when I'm hearing them because

640
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:11,760
it's almost like they're telling
a story with their ad.

641
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:16,400
But it does still kind of pop in
randomly and it feels a little

642
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:18,640
jarring.
So I would like to have some

643
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:23,360
kind of transition, some kind of
smooth transition back from this

644
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:26,560
storytelling to the ad and then
back to the storytelling again.

645
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:28,240
Yeah, Ralph.
Yeah.

646
00:35:28,240 --> 00:35:31,080
So I wanted to add something to
that because if had they thought

647
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:33,240
about it ahead of time, they
could have went out and

648
00:35:33,240 --> 00:35:37,080
solicited advertising with a pet
shop or some kind of pet

649
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:39,560
branding that would have tied
directly into what they're

650
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:41,680
talking about in this episode.
And I think we all can learn

651
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:43,760
from that.
If there's a topic that you're

652
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:46,640
talking about or something that
you're promoting on your show,

653
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:51,600
go find advertisers, go find
brands that match that because

654
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:53,440
that's a perfect tie.
And if there had been a

655
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:56,760
commercial for some sort of
online, a pet service or

656
00:35:56,760 --> 00:35:58,760
something like that, it would
have been perfect for this

657
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:00,760
episode.
But the ones they did with, like

658
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:02,800
it was Quince for buying clothes
or something.

659
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:05,800
I'm thinking that makes no
connection here whatsoever

660
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:08,760
because this dude in prison is
not getting clothes from Quince,

661
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:10,360
right?
It's just not happening.

662
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:13,000
So that connection just
completely falled for me.

663
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:15,840
Yep, I'm with you there.
Ashley wants to chime in.

664
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:18,480
Go ahead, Ashley.
Yeah, I was just thinking about

665
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:21,520
the ads and I can't help but
wonder because, you know, this

666
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:25,080
is a big production.
A team of people have produced

667
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:28,760
this podcast, I'm sure, and all
those folks need to be paid, I

668
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:30,040
wonder.
If.

669
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:35,480
The show and the sponsors have
an agreement laid out ahead of

670
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:40,640
time as to where those ads are
and what those, of course, what

671
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:42,600
those ads are because they've
made the agreement with the

672
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:43,640
sponsors.
But.

673
00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:46,520
That's something to consider if
you have sponsors on your

674
00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:49,720
podcast.
Is the negotiation process like

675
00:36:49,720 --> 00:36:53,160
where in the show are these ads
going to happen?

676
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:55,920
Yeah, Thank you, Ashley.
Great point.

677
00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:57,720
And Dr. wants to chime in as
well.

678
00:36:57,720 --> 00:37:01,320
Go ahead, Dr. Well, this is
where I'm going to call Sid into

679
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:07,680
it because his method of when he
got his sponsors, he really is

680
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:12,840
the one that called the shots.
And you know, he has taught me

681
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:18,320
that when you take on sponsors,
it's not, Oh my God, I have to

682
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:20,240
kowtow to all the sponsors and
everything.

683
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:22,760
That is not the approach that
Sid took.

684
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:24,880
Sid, you want to talk about that
just for a second?

685
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:26,400
Thanks.
For putting me on the spot, DI.

686
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:30,480
Sorry.
It's a really great point, and

687
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:33,960
sponsorship is certainly a hot
topic amongst podcasters in

688
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:35,800
general.
For sure.

689
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:38,440
My sponsors were very, very
targeted.

690
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:43,040
I knew I know who my audience
is, I know what my audience

691
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:46,800
needs, and I know the people
that can help my audience.

692
00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:51,920
So I made a list of who those
people were and went to them and

693
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:55,840
talked to them about the show,
sent them the media kit, sent

694
00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:58,800
them the outline of the
sponsors, our sponsorship

695
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:01,080
opportunities and had
conversations with them from

696
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:03,720
there.
And it was very much, this is

697
00:38:03,720 --> 00:38:06,520
what you get for being a
sponsor.

698
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:09,680
So I guess you could say I took
control of the situation.

699
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:12,640
I targeted the what I believe to
be the right people.

700
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:15,520
One of the 12 or so people that
I respond that I reached out to,

701
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:20,360
only two said no and two said
call me next year because I

702
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:21,760
don't have the budget for it
this year.

703
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:25,080
I think I just I owned it if
that's answering your question

704
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:26,680
the right way to you.
Yep.

705
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:28,080
She's nodding her head.
Yes.

706
00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:29,760
Yeah.
Thank you, Sid and thank you for

707
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:32,880
your on the spot answer.
Much appreciated.

708
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:35,120
Jonathan, I think we're coming
back to you.

709
00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:39,720
One comment on the ads I did.
I do agree, especially at the

710
00:38:39,720 --> 00:38:41,200
beginning there was a lot of
ads.

711
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:45,480
Radiotopia does this a lot and
it it is a little bit painful.

712
00:38:45,720 --> 00:38:47,920
So luckily we can Fast forward
through all of them.

713
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:49,720
But yeah, it's a little bit
painful.

714
00:38:49,720 --> 00:38:51,600
So.
But I also want to bring us back

715
00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:54,320
to the clip.
So this 4th clip, it really

716
00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:57,080
describes that unconditional
love in very plain language.

717
00:38:57,080 --> 00:39:00,120
It's not poetic, it's not
dramatic, it's just, it is what

718
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:02,240
it is.
But that simplicity makes it

719
00:39:02,240 --> 00:39:04,560
credible.
And it shows that he loves

720
00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:07,600
animals because they provided
him the unconditional love he is

721
00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:10,960
always wanted and he craved from
his mom, but he never got.

722
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:16,040
So those animals are core to who
he is and how he shows up now in

723
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:17,920
the world.
And I think that's important.

724
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:20,600
This also kind of highlights a
belief flip.

725
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:24,880
Strength isn't hardness, it's
the ability to care.

726
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:28,680
So he may not be the hardest
person in that prison, but he is

727
00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:33,560
quite possibly the strongest as
he has a huge ability to care

728
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:38,600
for things.
So that was a big kind of moment

729
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:42,280
in that clip is we see this
belief suddenly switched.

730
00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:45,360
It's not about hardness.
It's about being able to care,

731
00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:47,560
which is often considered
softness.

732
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:51,440
So in this last clip, they asked
some inmates what they would be

733
00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:54,480
if they were animals.
And Roach's answer is

734
00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:58,400
imaginative, fun and also a
little bit of devastating at the

735
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:00,840
same time.
So we can play that 5th.

736
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:05,560
Clip answer is pure Roach.
I want to hear that.

737
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:10,200
If I could be an animal, any
animal, it would be a wish

738
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:13,200
dragon that would only appear
when a kid needed it.

739
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:18,000
Because my experience with
imaginary friends, they were

740
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:20,840
needed.
So the thing about being a

741
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:23,560
dragon is they eat meat and I
couldn't do that.

742
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:25,880
So I'd have to be a vegetarian
dragon.

743
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:31,120
A thin vegetarian dragon.
He thought the whole thing

744
00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:33,920
through, he had all the details
of what he needed to do.

745
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:37,360
But the answer being a wish
dragon, It's funny, it's

746
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:40,120
imaginative, but it's also a
little devastating because it

747
00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:43,720
reveals who he is deep down and
that he does care and that he

748
00:40:43,720 --> 00:40:46,440
wants other kids to not have the
life that he did.

749
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:50,320
So it really ends the episode
with a dramatic transformation

750
00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:52,920
in the listeners mind.
At first he was this weird

751
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:56,000
inmate and now he's a human
that's been through a lot and

752
00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:58,720
you actually care about.
Fascinating.

753
00:40:58,720 --> 00:41:02,320
And Dr. You were just saying
something in our chat here on

754
00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:04,400
Riverside.
There was some sound effect that

755
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:08,800
caught your attention.
Yeah, it distracted me because

756
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:15,440
it sounded a tiny little bit
like a, a cat purr, something

757
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:18,440
like that.
And I kept fixating on it like

758
00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:19,720
what?
What?

759
00:41:19,720 --> 00:41:23,840
Well, I'm, I'm a cat person, so
I would naturally go to it, but

760
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:27,800
I kind of didn't hear what the
person said because I was like,

761
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:30,080
what is that sound?
Why is that sound there?

762
00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:32,240
I don't understand.
Yeah, I'm not sure.

763
00:41:32,240 --> 00:41:34,840
I heard it the first time and I
don't know, maybe that's

764
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:36,560
supposed to be the sound of the
dragon.

765
00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:37,280
I don't know.
Can you?

766
00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:40,040
Can you play it again and see if
anyone picks it up?

767
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:44,480
Answer is pure approach.
I want to hear that.

768
00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:49,040
If I could be an animal, any
animal, it would be a wish

769
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:53,440
dragon that would only appear
when a kid needed it, because my

770
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:57,320
experience with imaginary
friends, they were needed.

771
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:01,680
So the thing about being a
dragon is they eat meat, and I

772
00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:04,640
couldn't do that.
I hear it and I feel like it's

773
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:07,400
actually like a just a little
drum roll kind of thing.

774
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:09,400
I think that's all it is.
Yeah.

775
00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:12,280
Interesting BC did you want to
ask something or say something?

776
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:15,880
I'm not aware of any kind of
dragon archetype where they

777
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:18,400
purr.
The closest I can think of is

778
00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:21,360
maybe the the Good Luck Dragon
from Never Ending Story, but

779
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:24,760
that's like that's a really out
of way concept there but.

780
00:42:25,240 --> 00:42:28,000
Yeah, fair enough.
OK, fair enough.

781
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:30,000
I was grasping at straws.
What can I tell you?

782
00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:33,000
Jonathan, back to you.
Let's talk a little bit about

783
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:34,480
what makes this obsession
worthy.

784
00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:37,920
And I think the most important
point that I have on this one is

785
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:42,920
clarity plus humanity makes it
bingeable or obsession worthy,

786
00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:46,200
whichever you want to call it.
When you're clear and you've got

787
00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:48,280
a human element, people are
going to want to listen.

788
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:51,000
They want to lean in and and
learn more about these people,

789
00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:53,800
about the situation and that
makes it bingeable.

790
00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:57,920
And I mean, after listening to
this episode, I would tune into

791
00:42:57,920 --> 00:42:59,640
another episode.
I've listened to actually like

792
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:03,840
20 or 30 of this show, so I have
actually binged.

793
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:06,760
And many of the ones that I call
obsession worthy, I'll listen to

794
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:09,200
a few of them as I'm prepping
for the thing, but I don't

795
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:11,200
always go back to them.
This one I did.

796
00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:15,920
It uses emotional contrast,
curiosity loops, processes,

797
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:19,680
drama, the universal themes, and
then this identity shift that

798
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:22,040
happens at the end.
And all of those things are

799
00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:24,400
really powerful ways to connect
with your audience.

800
00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:29,400
They're emotional, they're
powerful, and they allow you to

801
00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:32,400
see the difference between, you
know, the beginning and the end.

802
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:35,320
And that helps people really
connect with with the whole

803
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:37,000
thing.
So those are things that we

804
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:39,560
should keep in mind when we're
creating our own podcasts.

805
00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:43,080
Are we using emotional contrast,
curiosity loops and things like

806
00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:44,920
that?
Yeah, 100%.

807
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:47,640
And Jonathan, before you go on,
I think Ashley wanted to chime

808
00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:48,840
in as well.
Go ahead, Ashley.

809
00:43:49,640 --> 00:43:52,280
I think another thing that
worked well for this show is pay

810
00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:55,680
attention to the length.
They told a whole story, and I

811
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:59,520
don't feel like we missed out on
anything in 24 minutes.

812
00:43:59,880 --> 00:44:02,920
I listened to this show while I
was driving and it was perfect

813
00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:06,800
because I was able to complete
the whole drive and listen to

814
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:08,800
the whole episode within 24
minutes.

815
00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:12,720
So I think there's something to
be said about, you know, the

816
00:44:12,720 --> 00:44:15,640
size that we package our stories
and how effective that can be.

817
00:44:16,240 --> 00:44:19,600
Yep, I'm with you there 100%.
Ralph wants to comment as well.

818
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:22,360
Go ahead, Ralph.
And maybe I missed this, but I

819
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:24,920
think they also missed an
opportunity to tell more of

820
00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:27,400
Roach's story.
They told the story at the

821
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:29,640
beginning about what happened
with his mom and all, but I

822
00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:31,920
don't know that they mention why
he was incarcerated.

823
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:34,160
Did they talk about the
struggles that he had?

824
00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:36,360
Because I felt like if they did,
I missed it.

825
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:39,440
And maybe that's just because I
wasn't keyed into it, but I felt

826
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:42,800
like they could have really
reinforced that because I

827
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:44,280
didn't.
And maybe it's just me, but I

828
00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:46,040
didn't get that strong take away
from that.

829
00:44:46,240 --> 00:44:49,720
And I think there was a huge
opportunity to talk about,

830
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:53,400
because it's funny after, after
listening to that, I, I went on

831
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:56,240
to ChatGPT and I said, what
we're really talking about here

832
00:44:56,240 --> 00:45:01,120
is willful emotional neglect.
And I leaned into that because

833
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:04,120
in my own life, I feel that
sometimes and I'm not

834
00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:06,840
incarcerated, thank God, but I,
I felt about that.

835
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:09,280
And I think that that would have
been a real interesting way to

836
00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:12,560
pivot this a little bit and to
really talk about the human side

837
00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:14,800
because they did a great job on
all the rest of it.

838
00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:17,200
But I just, I didn't have that
take away that I think they

839
00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:21,320
could have gotten in that story
had they had they really thought

840
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:24,000
about a little bit deeper.
I hear what you're saying and

841
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:28,960
I'm going to challenge it just a
little bit because I wonder if

842
00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:35,000
we as an audience or yeah, an
audience in general, I wonder if

843
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:39,520
they would lose interest or not
feel as connected if we knew

844
00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:44,040
going in that this guy,
apparently according to BC, this

845
00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:47,040
guy is in prison for murder,
second degree, right?

846
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:51,760
Like would that would that maybe
pull us out and make some of us

847
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:55,280
say, well, I don't really care
about this guy's story because

848
00:45:55,720 --> 00:45:59,080
he he's a murderer.
Maybe that's going to distract

849
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:03,120
from the story, the human side,
if we share that kind of

850
00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:04,720
information.
What do you think about that,

851
00:46:04,720 --> 00:46:06,880
Ralph?
Yeah, I think that's valid.

852
00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:10,640
But I also think that I left
with, well, tell me a little bit

853
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:13,440
more of his story because I want
to endear to this guy.

854
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:16,800
I want to connect to this guy.
Listen, if he's in jail, if he's

855
00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:19,080
in San Quentin, I'm assuming he
didn't do a nice thing.

856
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:21,520
So I'm just I'm just making that
assumption.

857
00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:24,920
So paint the picture for me a
little bit deeper and maybe they

858
00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:27,120
did and I just didn't, I didn't
connect to it.

859
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:29,560
But Mark, I think what you're
saying is valid, but at the same

860
00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:33,200
time, I think it leaves a piece
of the story out because

861
00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:35,840
honestly, I went into it with
the expectation that I'm not

862
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:38,040
going to like this guy.
I'm just being honest with you.

863
00:46:38,040 --> 00:46:41,160
My bias before I even click play
was I'm not going to like this

864
00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:42,920
guy.
This dudes in prison, He got

865
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:45,240
there for a purpose.
Now we're providing for his

866
00:46:45,240 --> 00:46:47,080
food, clothing and shelter.
And that annoys me.

867
00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:50,040
I'm just being blunt, but I
didn't feel that at the end.

868
00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:53,520
And I felt like, you know, you
could have really sold Ralph if

869
00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:56,720
you just gave me a little bit
more of that story about where

870
00:46:56,720 --> 00:46:58,560
he's at, what's changed in his
life.

871
00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:01,240
Because like I said, I connected
with the dude that I wasn't

872
00:47:01,240 --> 00:47:04,040
expecting to connect with.
Thank you, Ralph.

873
00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:06,280
Yeah.
It was mentioned, but the other

874
00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:08,680
thing that I wanted to point out
is there's 200 some odd episodes

875
00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:13,280
of this and leavings details out
makes you want to listen for

876
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:15,000
more.
And I think that's something

877
00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:18,200
that is key because they do have
there's 200, almost 300

878
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:19,880
episodes, I believe, of this
podcast.

879
00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:23,480
So he may appear again and you
might get a little bit more of a

880
00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:26,480
story and that builds the
connection between the episodes

881
00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:28,960
and brings the audience back for
more.

882
00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:31,040
Excellent point.
Yeah, Thank you.

883
00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:33,080
Jonathan BC Did you want to add
anything I.

884
00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:36,400
Was going to say I think it was
really quick too because it was

885
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:39,440
a Roach himself I believe.
Who mentioned his reason for

886
00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:41,120
incarceration?
They kind of brought him in,

887
00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:43,040
talking about Roach out in the
yard.

888
00:47:43,040 --> 00:47:45,760
He has this funny habit of while
he's drawing that, of smelling

889
00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:49,600
his, his braids or his locks.
And then he introduces himself

890
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:51,680
saying, yeah, I do that.
I put different oils on my hair

891
00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:54,240
and I like to smell them while
I'm drawing out in the yard.

892
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:58,200
And he I think really kind of
quickly mentions, but also kind

893
00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:00,840
of breezes by his reason for
incarceration.

894
00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:03,920
Jonathan might recall a bit more
intricately than I do, but it's

895
00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:05,960
super quick.
So if you if you listen don't

896
00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:07,600
listen for like 2 seconds, you
will miss it.

897
00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:10,760
Thank you BCDR. Did you want to
add on?

898
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:15,480
I think if I were producing this
particular episode, 1 of the

899
00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:19,200
things that I loved about this
episode that I'm going to be

900
00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:22,360
taking away and thinking again
about the episodes that I

901
00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:28,280
produce now for my clients is
they put the Stinger at the end

902
00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:32,600
of the show as a for this is
what's going to be on next week.

903
00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:38,840
And they put a Stinger a sound
clip from the next episode on

904
00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:41,920
this episode.
So I think if I was producing

905
00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:46,800
this episode, I probably would
have made it all about Roach and

906
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:49,440
his story, not about the
animals.

907
00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:53,720
The animals, his love for the
animals got us kind of hooked

908
00:48:53,720 --> 00:48:56,800
into Roach.
Now I want to know more about

909
00:48:56,800 --> 00:48:59,960
him.
So that's next episode might

910
00:48:59,960 --> 00:49:04,800
have been about his journey and
that's probably what I would

911
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:07,400
have done.
But the Stinger at the end or

912
00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:11,080
the, the little sound clip of
the next episode that people

913
00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:13,760
will hear, it was really
powerful to me.

914
00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:16,640
And I, I think that's something
I'm, I'm really taking away from

915
00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:18,000
this.
I like that, yeah.

916
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:21,680
Because a lot of times, at least
we here talk about putting those

917
00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:24,640
little, those little clips at
the beginning to tease the

918
00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:28,040
episode itself, right?
Grab a highlight moment from the

919
00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:30,560
episode we're about to hear.
Put that at the very beginning

920
00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:33,720
as a little teaser.
But to your point, yeah, having

921
00:49:33,720 --> 00:49:38,080
a a clip for the next episode to
play at the end would honestly,

922
00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:41,000
I think think would build a lot
of intrigue and interest for the

923
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:44,800
next story, the next episode.
Yeah, good point, Dr. Thank you.

924
00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:47,680
Ralph, did you want to add on?
Yeah, and I was just going to

925
00:49:47,680 --> 00:49:51,560
say that at the end of an
episode is is great real estate

926
00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:54,200
because you're not going to
annoy somebody at that point.

927
00:49:54,240 --> 00:49:56,000
These are your true believers at
the end.

928
00:49:56,240 --> 00:49:58,560
So you can put what you want at
the end of an episode.

929
00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:00,720
In my opinion, that's a great
place to put chat.

930
00:50:00,720 --> 00:50:03,480
That's a great place to the back
and forth between the hosts.

931
00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:06,880
And it's also a great place for
your true believers to hear

932
00:50:06,880 --> 00:50:09,480
about what's coming next.
So I just, I champion what Dr.

933
00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:10,600
says.
A lot of people get worried

934
00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:14,360
about adding stuff into their
episode, but I think real estate

935
00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:17,280
wise, that's a great place to do
it because those are your people

936
00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:20,400
who hung in there till the end.
They suffered through the six

937
00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:23,080
minutes of commercials and and
they got to the end and they're

938
00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:25,400
still there.
So I think that that's where you

939
00:50:25,400 --> 00:50:29,320
really reward your active
listeners, the participants who

940
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:32,160
are really your true believers.
Yeah, Thank you.

941
00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:35,000
Ralph and Nikki, you wanted to
add something?

942
00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:38,240
I'm going to add two things.
One, I haven't listened to the

943
00:50:38,240 --> 00:50:41,040
full episode, so I was just
listening to Ralph's point about

944
00:50:41,040 --> 00:50:45,000
the leaving the the actual crime
out and the reason for why he

945
00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:47,240
was in jail.
I think that was a fairpoint

946
00:50:47,240 --> 00:50:51,960
just because when I'm watching a
movie or a documentary or I'm

947
00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:55,960
looking at something on social
media in today's world, things

948
00:50:55,960 --> 00:51:02,600
are so highly edited that I
don't trust when people post

949
00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:04,840
things.
And especially if there's a very

950
00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:09,280
strong narrative that is pulling
me in One Direction, it's it

951
00:51:09,280 --> 00:51:13,280
sets off a little bit of a
yellow flag because not that

952
00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:16,000
it's bad, but it makes me think,
what are they hiding?

953
00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:19,760
What are they not showing?
Why are they not telling me this

954
00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:21,840
information?
Those are the thoughts that kind

955
00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:24,440
of run through my mind.
And then the second thing is

956
00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:27,160
just by listening to these
clips, the one thing that really

957
00:51:27,160 --> 00:51:30,000
stood out to me, and I just
think that's so interesting that

958
00:51:30,000 --> 00:51:34,120
sometimes to connect with the
feelings, the deep feelings of

959
00:51:34,120 --> 00:51:38,560
love and authenticity and who we
really are as people, sometimes

960
00:51:38,560 --> 00:51:41,200
intense isolation is what we
need.

961
00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:43,320
Now, we don't all have to be
incarcerated, of course, but

962
00:51:43,720 --> 00:51:47,840
spending that time alone can
really bring about some deep

963
00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:51,120
levels of self-awareness that we
wouldn't have achieved just by,

964
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:53,800
you know, distracting ourselves
with social media and doing all

965
00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:56,360
the Super surface level.
Absolutely.

966
00:51:56,360 --> 00:51:59,400
I mean meditation, prayer,
etcetera.

967
00:51:59,400 --> 00:52:03,360
Those are a lot of times those
moments of quiet that we put

968
00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:08,720
ourselves in to reflect tooth
to, yeah, learn more about us,

969
00:52:09,240 --> 00:52:11,160
right.
Because it's it's those quiet

970
00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:14,680
moments that really allow us to
process all of the noise, all of

971
00:52:14,680 --> 00:52:16,520
the things that are going
through our heads.

972
00:52:16,840 --> 00:52:20,720
And, you know, that's why things
like social media and phones and

973
00:52:20,720 --> 00:52:23,280
all that kind of stuff, it can
be a real problem.

974
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:27,080
It can really distract us from
those moments of quiet so that

975
00:52:27,080 --> 00:52:30,680
we can process all of the
different things that were that

976
00:52:30,680 --> 00:52:34,440
are thrown at us throughout our
day and throughout our life.

977
00:52:34,680 --> 00:52:36,440
Absolutely.
Nikki, I'm with you there.

978
00:52:37,080 --> 00:52:39,840
Janae is on stage.
Janae, did you want to add on to

979
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:44,200
this Good morning, Really epic
episode today?

980
00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:48,440
I really was pulled into the
episode and what they're telling

981
00:52:48,440 --> 00:52:51,920
in the story and to the last
point, and This is why I wanted

982
00:52:51,920 --> 00:52:55,160
to jump on stage when Dr.
mentioned and Ralph Yo

983
00:52:55,160 --> 00:52:57,080
mentioned, you know, there they
could have been some more

984
00:52:57,080 --> 00:52:59,920
rational stuff at the end of the
episode.

985
00:52:59,920 --> 00:53:03,640
But we all think that we are
rational human beings.

986
00:53:03,640 --> 00:53:07,800
But here's here's the rub and
here's the twist.

987
00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:10,240
We're not we are very
irrational.

988
00:53:10,240 --> 00:53:13,280
We're very emotional.
And that's what they try to do

989
00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:15,440
at the end of the episode.
Even though I didn't hear it

990
00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:19,080
right, because they put that
irrational thing, you want to

991
00:53:19,080 --> 00:53:22,160
come back and listen to that
irrational thing?

992
00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:24,400
We all want to be rational human
beings.

993
00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:26,800
But unfortunately, that's not
the case.

994
00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:30,600
And that's why the episodes, the
way that they've designed it

995
00:53:30,600 --> 00:53:31,800
works so well.
Thanks.

996
00:53:32,320 --> 00:53:33,400
Yeah.
Thank you, Janae.

997
00:53:33,440 --> 00:53:36,400
I think that's a great, great
point to emphasize.

998
00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:39,800
We think we want rational, but
we are, we tend to be attracted

999
00:53:39,800 --> 00:53:41,760
more to the irrational.
Yeah.

1000
00:53:41,960 --> 00:53:45,760
I'm with you, Dr. What was your
question that you just asked

1001
00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:47,840
here?
I was just looking it up.

1002
00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:50,960
So I think it's important, it's
noteworthy to say that this

1003
00:53:50,960 --> 00:53:54,440
particular episode, if people
want to go back and listen to it

1004
00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:59,680
right now, they are in in Season
16, Season 16.

1005
00:53:59,960 --> 00:54:04,680
This episode was all the way
back on Season 1 and it was

1006
00:54:04,680 --> 00:54:07,800
episode #4.
I think it was 3 actually. 3,

1007
00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:11,240
episode number 3.
OK, I'm going back after today's

1008
00:54:11,240 --> 00:54:12,640
show.
I'm going to go back and listen

1009
00:54:12,640 --> 00:54:16,240
to something more current to see
how much they've evolved.

1010
00:54:16,240 --> 00:54:20,040
It's just a natural progression
that you would evolve after 16

1011
00:54:20,040 --> 00:54:23,040
seasons.
So I'm curious to to listen to

1012
00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:25,760
that.
And the other narrator who was

1013
00:54:25,760 --> 00:54:27,720
in jail at the time is now out
of jail.

1014
00:54:28,240 --> 00:54:29,640
Oh awesome.
Re entering.

1015
00:54:29,920 --> 00:54:33,200
Life Sid, go for it.
So I didn't have anything to.

1016
00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:35,120
Add about the episode other than
I was saying Jonathan.

1017
00:54:35,120 --> 00:54:38,120
This was a great 1 and I really
appreciate you selecting this

1018
00:54:38,120 --> 00:54:39,320
one.
So I just wanted to say one

1019
00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:42,360
other thing if I could.
Mark, on Friday, I had my

1020
00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:46,240
question about software to use
and I just got two members of

1021
00:54:46,240 --> 00:54:49,880
this community, specifically
Ralph and Janae.

1022
00:54:50,320 --> 00:54:55,160
Ralph shared in our group chat a
resource where I could go and

1023
00:54:55,160 --> 00:54:59,000
learn about ECAMM and I started
watching all these videos of

1024
00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:01,000
free resources.
Absolutely amazing Ralph.

1025
00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:02,440
So thank you so much for sharing
it.

1026
00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:06,560
And I did decide to jump in with
Ecam and I played around with it

1027
00:55:06,560 --> 00:55:08,640
this weekend.
And then I jumped on a call

1028
00:55:08,640 --> 00:55:11,440
yesterday with Janae and he
showed me some inner workings of

1029
00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:13,800
how it all works.
So I just wanted to say thank

1030
00:55:13,800 --> 00:55:17,280
you to both of you and shout out
to the community that this group

1031
00:55:17,280 --> 00:55:18,880
is here to help you any way they
possibly can.

1032
00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:21,520
So thank you both.
Thank you, Sid, and thank you

1033
00:55:21,520 --> 00:55:24,080
for the follow up Glad.
That this community rallies

1034
00:55:24,080 --> 00:55:26,720
behind one another.
Glad you got your help and

1035
00:55:26,720 --> 00:55:30,120
curious to to watch and see what
you've done.

1036
00:55:30,120 --> 00:55:33,520
I was just talking about ECAM
with Ralph this morning a little

1037
00:55:33,520 --> 00:55:37,080
bit as an alternative way that
we stream.

1038
00:55:37,800 --> 00:55:40,880
No, no decisions made yet.
But yeah, thank you, Sid.

1039
00:55:40,920 --> 00:55:43,480
Jonathan, did you want to give
us a final take away before I

1040
00:55:43,480 --> 00:55:47,120
share my news?
Just that the take away that I

1041
00:55:47,120 --> 00:55:50,880
took from all of this is.
One, you guys are incredibly

1042
00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:52,720
detailed when it comes to
podcasting, all of you.

1043
00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:57,040
But 2, when you make the process
human and get on an identity

1044
00:55:57,040 --> 00:56:01,760
shift, you're going to actually
create this connection.

1045
00:56:01,800 --> 00:56:04,920
It's more than just a story.
It's something that people see

1046
00:56:04,920 --> 00:56:07,400
themselves in, and that's a
great way to keep them coming

1047
00:56:07,400 --> 00:56:09,160
back to your show.
Agreed.

1048
00:56:09,160 --> 00:56:11,120
Thank you Jonathan for leading
another.

1049
00:56:11,320 --> 00:56:14,800
Excellent obsession where the
podcast series episode.

1050
00:56:14,800 --> 00:56:16,880
Appreciate you appreciate the
content.

1051
00:56:16,880 --> 00:56:20,040
I think it was really helpful
and what I was going to to share

1052
00:56:20,040 --> 00:56:23,400
with all of you is on Thursday I
am out.

1053
00:56:23,400 --> 00:56:25,560
Thursday and Friday the show
will go on.

1054
00:56:25,560 --> 00:56:28,160
As they say.
Ralph is going to take over the

1055
00:56:28,160 --> 00:56:32,080
first seat and lead the charge
and the rest of the cast and

1056
00:56:32,080 --> 00:56:37,120
crew will be here.
I won't be here because this 52

1057
00:56:37,120 --> 00:56:41,960
year old guy is getting his
wisdom teeth pulled on Thursday.

1058
00:56:42,200 --> 00:56:45,600
I have three of four with wisdom
teeth remaining.

1059
00:56:45,600 --> 00:56:50,280
I was given the option when I
was 16 years old to either pull

1060
00:56:50,280 --> 00:56:52,920
the one that had to be removed
or pull them all at the same

1061
00:56:52,920 --> 00:56:55,200
time while I was there.
And I decided, well, let's just

1062
00:56:55,200 --> 00:56:56,880
pull the one that needs to be
removed.

1063
00:56:57,160 --> 00:57:01,080
And completely regretting that
decision now because now I got

1064
00:57:01,080 --> 00:57:05,400
to go under the knife and get
those other three removed.

1065
00:57:05,400 --> 00:57:08,240
So Thursday and Friday I will be
out of Commission.

1066
00:57:08,240 --> 00:57:10,080
They say it's a three day
recovery.

1067
00:57:10,240 --> 00:57:13,440
We'll see what the following
week brings to me and the

1068
00:57:13,440 --> 00:57:18,240
following week could also bring
to me jury duty, which I'm

1069
00:57:18,240 --> 00:57:21,520
trying to get out of.
I've I've put in a request due

1070
00:57:21,520 --> 00:57:25,040
to my surgery hoping that they
will accept that as a reason why

1071
00:57:25,040 --> 00:57:27,400
I can't go.
Otherwise it'll be an

1072
00:57:27,400 --> 00:57:29,120
interesting week for me for
sure.

1073
00:57:29,360 --> 00:57:34,400
Little swollen in jury duty and
not here so I will have more

1074
00:57:34,880 --> 00:57:37,800
about next week.
But as far as this week goes I

1075
00:57:37,800 --> 00:57:40,160
won't be here Thursday and
Friday but the cast and crew

1076
00:57:40,160 --> 00:57:42,760
will be here to keep things
going.

1077
00:57:43,080 --> 00:57:44,920
Ralph did or no?
It was BC.

1078
00:57:44,920 --> 00:57:47,440
Did you have something?
Can you confirm if we'll be

1079
00:57:47,440 --> 00:57:49,160
getting a post op video from
the?

1080
00:57:49,160 --> 00:57:53,480
Wifey, I can ask her for that.
Sure, No problem.

1081
00:57:55,000 --> 00:57:57,520
Yeah, while you're on that drug
that you know.

1082
00:57:57,520 --> 00:58:00,760
The anesthetics, yes, awesome.
Yes, I'm going to be so.

1083
00:58:00,800 --> 00:58:03,400
Disappointed if we don't get a
video of you coming.

1084
00:58:03,400 --> 00:58:05,840
Out of anesthesia.
OK, OK, fine.

1085
00:58:05,840 --> 00:58:08,200
I will tell her.
Get a camera on me.

1086
00:58:08,200 --> 00:58:11,200
Even though I really think all
those tik toks and Instagram

1087
00:58:11,200 --> 00:58:15,040
videos are all staged, I don't
believe that those kids are

1088
00:58:15,040 --> 00:58:18,560
really under that influence that
badly.

1089
00:58:18,760 --> 00:58:21,680
Yes BC good.
No, I got my wisdom teeth taken

1090
00:58:21,680 --> 00:58:24,320
out in.
High school, I came out of the

1091
00:58:24,320 --> 00:58:28,640
operation singing Aria, so it's
real.

1092
00:58:28,920 --> 00:58:30,280
Thank you.
There were no cameras, but I

1093
00:58:30,280 --> 00:58:32,120
came.
Out singing an opera, just for

1094
00:58:32,120 --> 00:58:32,520
one.
Yeah.

1095
00:58:32,680 --> 00:58:33,920
OK.
All right.

1096
00:58:34,040 --> 00:58:35,440
Amy has a job.
Yes.

1097
00:58:35,480 --> 00:58:37,600
I will tell her today.
To be prepared.

1098
00:58:37,920 --> 00:58:41,640
OK, so we are back tomorrow,
7:00 AM Eastern talking news and

1099
00:58:41,640 --> 00:58:43,320
comment.
We will talk about all the

1100
00:58:43,320 --> 00:58:46,720
headlines around the world of
podcasting, headlines that are

1101
00:58:46,720 --> 00:58:50,120
of interest to you, the content
creator.

1102
00:58:50,120 --> 00:58:54,040
So join us 7:00 AM Eastern live
on Clubhouse, YouTube, LinkedIn,

1103
00:58:54,040 --> 00:58:57,440
Facebook, all the places and you
can get that information in the

1104
00:58:57,440 --> 00:59:01,280
show notes or at podcasting
Morning chat.com.

1105
00:59:01,560 --> 00:59:05,080
Until tomorrow, make it a great
day everybody.

1106
00:59:05,160 --> 00:59:05,640
Take care.