How Your First Minute Secretly Shapes Listener Trust

0:05 Good morning, podcasting. Morning Chat. Today is Thursday, November 20th, 2025, and today, branding, clarity, tighter messaging, and stronger listener engagement take center stage as we break down the space between in our podcast evaluation series to spotlight what elevates and what limits. So if you're listening live on Clubhouse, hit the share button, bottom, top, right hand of the screen and share it. However, Clubhouse lets you. And if you're catching us via podcast chatter, YouTube, share this with a fellow podcaster. And now give us about 30 seconds and we'll get things rolling. Thanks for being here.

1:20 Good morning again podcasting, morning chat. Thanks so much for being here. I am your host Mark Ronik and on stage with me. We have a full house to say the least. My Co hosts Jonathan Howard, producer Ashley Feller, Dr. Faye, we have Cliff Ravenscroft here today. We've got Nick Naulback, Sid Meadows, Ralph Estep and Alex Baelish. Welcome. Everyone in Cliff Ravenscraft, it's so good to have you back again for another evaluation series. Let me first stop and say good morning to you, Sir. Welcome. Good morning. Thank you so much. It's an honor to be here. Love having you be a part of this. It really is an honor having you be a part of this too, as really one of the OG podcasting coaches out there. Very cool to have you here again. And yeah, we are going to dig into that podcast we just mentioned The Space Between.

2:17 If you were listening live, you got to hear me mess it up because I actually titled it the name of a Dave Matthews song. I called it The Space Between Us and then I had to start over. I did not want to roll with that as the official intro. So this comes from a member of our community of the Empowered Podcasting Conference community, Sean McClellan. Sean, We were introduced to Sean this past September when he attended the conference and he saw that we were looking for podcasts to evaluate and he applied. And we're going to dive into this approximately 11 minute episode and I see Ashley using our shared sheet.

3:01 Going to grab the episode link right now. Thank you. Ashley, I was just about to ask you to do that. So we will share that link with you here live on Clubhouse. And of course, it'll be in the show notes for you if you want to go back and listen later. But we're going to play lots of clips for you so you can get a good taste about this podcast. In this particular episode, we're also going to do what we normally do. We'll talk about the branding, the discoverability, all the other things that are important to consider when you have a podcast. So The Space Between is a podcast that was created for the individual who's seeking balance, purpose, and intentional growth.

3:43 It explores the journey between where someone is now and where they want to be, hence the name. The space between Sean's target audience, he says, is a high achieving, faith anchored, purpose seeking leader who's ready to exchange external success for internal significance. And they see your message as the road map to get there. Or I should say, they see his message as the road map to get there. It's about an 11 minute episode and he's looking for feedback on things like content quality and depth, audio, engagement, production quality, storytelling, all the things, even the calls to action during the podcast. So I think the best thing we're gonna we could do here is let's start with a clip.

4:33 Let's start with the show open. I'm trying to come up with or share the correct terminology because in this case, there's the show open, which is the music. There's a voice over. Then there is the start to the episode. Then there is the introduction to what he's going to really dig into to the episode. So there's lots of little pieces to this. This is gonna be, like I said, the show open. Let's give it a play. Welcome to the Space Between podcast, where solutions always have room to grow, and we encourage you to be. Who you are before the world told you who to be. Here's your host, Sean McClellan. You nobody.

5:17 Welcome back to The Space Between, the only place to be for the Dreamer, the Doer, and the Overcomer. OK, there you go. I cut it off there because we're going to dissect this as we go. So let's talk about this gang. What was everyone's immediate impression when the episode began? Let's go to Cliff first, our guest host today, and then I'll check in with several others that want to chime in. Go for it, Cliff. Good morning. Good morning. So my first thought was the intro kind of sounds professional enough. It communicates the value. It was clear, easy to hear and then instantly I couldn't hear a word, he said. Oh, interesting.

5:58 OK. If anything it sounded like what I'm doing right now, which is just sitting in the front seat of my car. Only if I had my mouth away from the microphone like the mic was. Maybe the phone is what I'm using to record and it's in the front seat and I'm sitting in the back seat. That's unless it didn't come through. That's what I heard. Cliff, you're being too kind. I think he was actually in another room. It was just like. I'm wondering, Alex and Cliff, if it's maybe a clubhouse thing. I'm not well. I don't know because. Mark doesn't. Happen in the audience. That. Did not happen in the actual show when you listen to a live mark. That's what I thought too. So And Sid, did you hear a difference just now when I played?

6:40 It Oh yeah, it sounded like it totally dropped off the volume level. Between the intro and him talking were night and day difference, but in the actual episode when you listen to it, that did not happen. OK, And this is where actually, and I, I don't think Matt Bliss, yeah, Matt's not here to share, but he did share some feedback earlier this week. And one of the things he pointed out is that this was recorded in stereo, and I think there were some issues with that stereo recording. You can hear it. It's hard to explain, so I'm not going to, But you could hear there is definitely something unusual about the audio. And if he had done this in mono, I think it would have been a little more smooth as far as the audio quality goes. And I think maybe it would translate better playing it back for you here on Clubhouse.

7:32 That's my suspicion. Let me just say to you that let's all assume that actually the audio quality as far as hearing him and the levelling of him, it's all fine. It all sounds fine. I mean, there is that stereo recording issue and I know Matt's suggestion is to record it in mono or in post production, make it a mono file instead and I think that'll solve any weirdness. I will say this and then I'll check in with somebody else. As far as the show open goes, I used to be a fan of those intros that had the voice over person that kind of starts or sounds like a a radio show intro. I have lost love for that and it's a personal preference, right?

8:17 Like I'm not saying this is the wrong thing to do, Sean. You can't use that kind of intro. I believe that it's more effective if we're hearing the host's voice introduce the episode. I want to hear who that is, who I'm going to get to know. If this is the first time I'm pressing play, I don't need the big fanfare either, because these days when I hit play, I just want to get to it. I want to know who I'm who I'm listening to and what they're delivering to me. Ralph, did you want to add something? Yeah, which speaks volumes to what happens next, actually, if we want to continue on. And that is the next thing we hear is his introduction. It goes right into I want to sell you some coaching services and I want you to give me a rate and review before I even know who you are or what you're going to tell me. OK, Yes, we will play that part too. And that's interesting feedback for sure. And I think, yeah, let's have a conversation about that too. So let's put a pin on that just for a moment. Did anybody else want to share about the actual show open? Yes, Alex.

9:22 I've been kind of focused on the intros of some of the podcasts I've been, you know, listening to. I actually don't have a problem with it. And there's this one show and it's got, it's not a Mel Robbins commercial, you know, it doesn't have 27,000 commercials. But you know what? I have no problem just hitting forward. But to Ralph's point, I think, you know, selling is right off the bat, you know, say hi at least. I see in the chat Renee said the show intro reminds her of a Joe Rogan opening. I could see that Dr. agrees with that. Anyone else want to share but? That's why Dr. like it so much. Go ahead, Jonathan. I don't have a problem with the openings as a stand alone, however it didn't really flow well into like the style of it didn't flow well into the podcast. It didn't feel like the same thing. Yeah, I'm with you there.

10:14 Go ahead, Cliff. The one thing that I think is the intro was short enough that I definitely agree. Some of those can be long and stuff like that, but I really enjoyed the fact that it communicated this is who the show is for. This is what the show is about and it got straight to the point. The one thing that it that could happen is you could start with your voice, say something that is you as the host of the show, and then and then cut to that prerecorded intro that does the setup of who who the show is for, what it's about, blah, blah, blah. And I definitely agree, the energy of the voice of the host should match the energy of the music that's included in the intro.

10:57 I love your suggestion, Cliff. It's similar to what the episode we evaluated last week in the sense that I remember we when we hit play, we first had a what I'll call a cold open. The host came in right away asking a question, a question that pertained to the episode topic that I feel is really effective. If you could make that short and sweet, ask a couple of questions to get your audience thinking about the topic and then say something like, that's what we're going to get into today. And then boom, the music. Music starts, right. So I think that is. Yeah, that's a wonderful suggestion, Cliff. Thank you for that one. OK, let me get into this next clip here. This is what Ralph was alluding to. This is what happens.

11:46 And you'll even hear the the tail end of the music playing. This is right after that intro we just heard. Back to the space between the only place to be for the dreamer, the doer and the overcomer, which you guys send me a favorite number to iTunes to Spotify or wherever you listen to podcast. Leave it ready for the show. Smash out five star review for your boy. I really would appreciate it. And whenever you are ready to work one-on-one, get some clarity and momentum in your life in regards to going for your own dream. Got a special page set up for you guys at Link with shawn.com Link with shawn.com you can call Get on my Calendar. Pick a time that works for you. Let's have a conversation. OK, so let me go to Ralph first since Ralph brought this up.

12:29 Ralph, do you want to elaborate or share anymore? Absolutely. So I'm going to take a position of I'm a new listener to this person. I'm going to make an assumption that this person knows what they're talking about. That's not judgement, but I'm making that assumption. But I need to hear who this person is. I need to hear some St. cred. I need to understand what is the value I'm getting here before you tell me the like and review, man, I haven't even listened to your episode yet and you want me to give you a review? That's great. That's cool thing to put at the end, but I want to hear what is the value to me today? Who is this person I'm listening to? If it was Michael Jordan or if it was somebody that was a celebrity, I could see going into that. But I don't know who this person is and it needs to launch off with a story or some kind of hook in that.

13:16 Here's what I do, Here's what here's, here's my journey. Or something like that. Yeah, I'm with you there, Ralph, because it does kind of remind me almost. It's just the equivalent of a blind LinkedIn DM that's trying to sell me on something, right? It's just all of a sudden, if I'm new to this podcast and all of a sudden I'm being pitched, I'm not saying I'm going to turn off the the podcast, but I will say that a lot of listeners, I think will hear that, but they're not going to take any action yet because of exactly what you were saying. They first want to understand who they're listening to, what they're going to get out of it. And then once you've hooked them, then they're going to be more likely to go follow your podcast, maybe go schedule that discovery call with Sean. So I'm with you there.

14:02 I think that's important. Nick, I think you wanted to add something and then I see others want to chime in as well. Good morning, good morning. I think I get where Ralph is going with it and I I do agree and Cliff put in the chat as well. Every episode is somebody's first episode, and that was kind of where I wanted to go as well. Like I don't think. What? He's doing in the episode is bad. Like I think he should be promoting it just maybe a little bit further down the episode or towards the middle or after. He's provided some value first, but just a slight mindset shift. It very much feels like he's talking to his community like, hey guys, welcome back here. You are like everyone.

14:42 The assumption is that everyone understands what's happening, what he's doing now. And I think for a vast majority, if you're trying to bring in new audience listeners, they have no idea, the girl said. They, they have no idea who you are. They're just tuning in for the first time and until you kind of get involved inside that community or get value from the person, it's going to be really hard to hear sign up for my coach and sign up for this, do this. So I think having that mindset shift of like business could be new listeners, not necessarily my current audience. I think that could go a long way. Look, as a host, I get it. It's a delicate dance. There are two different types of listeners we have to cater to. We have to always assume we've got a new set of ears and, or eyes on our show.

15:36 And at the same time, we have a, a recurring audience. We have a community that keeps coming back. So it's hard sometimes. I get it. It can be hard sometimes. Like who am I speaking to in this moment, right? And I think the key is just to remember that you do have those two types of listeners there. And in that moment when you're speaking to somebody, just think about who is, who am I speaking to right now? Is it the newbie or is it the veteran, the community member? But I think it's just important to think about who you're actually speaking to when you're directing something toward your audience. I want to check in with Billy. And before I do, I just wanted to say I agree with you, Ashley. I saw in the chat Renee also put the host is asking for a date and I don't even know who he is. I think that's a great analogy.

16:23 I agree. All right, let's check in with Billy, who's joined us on stage. Good morning, Billy. What do you want to add to this? Good morning. Well, I will take the opposite opinion. It's a mullet dude part. It's like business in the front, party in the back. Let's do all the announcements up front. Let's get all that stuff out of the way and then let's get into the content. And so I would weigh more and I appreciate this about podcasters who do this. And it's just upfront. It's to the point it's being it's a transactional whatever. And it's like, cool, now we can move on with the with the content. I'd much rather that approach then like interrupting the conversation. Pitch me about mattresses. I think maybe what I would prefer the happy medium here is that he picked one thing to promote. And ideally, I think what would work really well is, hey, if you find yourself enjoying today's episode, do me a favor, hit pause and press that plus button at the top of your Apple podcast page or give us a follow.

17:23 Give this show a follow. If you're enjoying today's episode, leave it there. And then maybe later at some point in the episode, I hear what you're saying, Bill, you don't want you don't love the interruption at some point. But I think if you can work it in, I think it can work well. You know, you here is a show where he's basically coaching his audience. So at some point he could reference. Hey, if you want to dig into this deeper, if you want some more one-on-one time about what we're discussing right now, feel free to use the link in the show notes and book a discovery call with me. Something like that I think could work well too. Sid, did you want to add something? Good morning, everybody. I absolutely see Billy's point and I don't really have a strong opinion either way.

18:05 Everybody's making really valid points about this. You know, going straight for the sale can be perceived as sleazy. Just jumping in your point, Mark. He's asking us to do too many things in the front of the show, and we all fall victim to that, if you will. We're asking our audiences to do too many things. I think my real issue with that is actually the entire episode is his pacing. He's talking too fast. Like I had a hard time keeping up with him because if you listen to that, it's his pacing is really quick. And I also, this is just a personal preference. I personally don't resonate when people refer to themselves as your boy or your girl. I don't like that. And so that was something that kind of tuned me out of it.

18:45 But the pacing of how he talks, he does it the entire show is, is actually really fast. The other thing I want to just say to you quickly, Mark, is when you're playing the clip, it sounds like you're holding your phone to the microphone. So it's like the clip is in a bucket or something. I don't know if it was the way you recorded it, but Billy said this in the chat when you play the clip, when you turn volume up so that we can hear it, because I had to turn my volume all the way up to hear the clip and then turn it down when you started talking. Very thanks. For having my back on that, my boy. My boy Sid having my back. Oh my girl, Dude, yeah. It is all the way up and again we are a victim of the way that Sean recorded it. I should have thought about this and record and made the clips mono and I think that would have solved the problem here live as we play them.

19:37 So it's a good it's a good thing. Not that most people's podcasts are going to be clipped and played on other podcasts, but it's a good lesson here that Sean needs to think about the way that he's publishing these episodes and make sure that it's in a format that's easy on the ear and easy on technology for that matter, too. So I'll do my best here. But like I said, I'm riding the the volume on these clips all the way up. It's fascinating that I think this is partially due to his. Quality of the recording and partially to do with how it's coming out here on Clubhouse. Let's talk for a second. That was some common feedback from this group as you guys sent me in your feedback that it was fast-paced.

20:21 And I think to the point I didn't have a problem with the pacing itself. But I think what I was noticing was he was talking so fast where a lot of times his he was swallowing his words. He wasn't getting the words out clearly and where I noticed that especially is in that call to action that he just shared. When he talked about the link to click on to schedule with him, it was so fast-paced and so mumbled because it was spoken so quickly, I had to play it back a couple of times to hear what he had to say. So yeah, I agree, slow down a little bit, Sean. I think it'll serve you and your audience really well. Alex, did you want to chime in? Yeah, I'm glad that they brought that point up because I didn't know what it was.

21:06 And I was going to say he should have a tagline, and he may very well have a tagline, but I never actually heard it because it was kind of all white noise because he was going too fast. Hi. Hi, Lucy. I think we're all on the same page there. And I do want to pat him on the back, though, because we're talking all about some of the criticisms here. And we should say we've only gotten into the 1st about I'd say about minute and a half, two minutes, like he's not taking up a ton of time here with all of this. But Mark, that's the thing, I know a lot of podcasters when they first start like their podcast episode, they kind of like throw up everything because they want to make it short.

21:47 The one thing that I learned from you doing this, you're very kind of intentional with that extra pause that you have and it and it does actually help when you talk like this, when you're listening as opposed to the way I talk, which is but you know, I mean, so there is something to be said. I know we're not trying to trash the hole. No, no. But this is advice about pacing. So yeah, I'm with you, Alex. And we'll play a little bit more in a moment where I think he does a little bit better of a job where sometimes he'll talk faster. And I think I do this too. And like you said, most of the time it's intentional. I'll talk fast for a bit and then I'll stop and slow things down for a second.

22:30 I think there that helps our brains as as the audience. It helps our brains catch up. It helps us process. Yes, Dr., go ahead. Just a little behind the scenes info for everyone, Both Ashley and I, we landed somehow on a different episode and it was the same episode that we had landed on, but it's not the one that was for this eval. And we listened to it and we evaluated it and he has the same very quick kind of morning DJ kind of talk. But there was one point in that other episode that he slowed down and he took a pause and I'm telling you, I leaned in.

23:19 I was like, what's happening? Because out of that fast-paced, Oh my God, Oh my God. And then all of a sudden, the pause, it was amazing and it was powerful and it made an impact. Thanks for calling that out. And yes, that it's funny that you and Ashley both listened at the titles of the two episodes, the correct one to listen to today and the one that you guys listen to, the titles were similar, They started similar similarly. And that's another issue. True, true. Especially if they're very close together. Yeah, that could be another issue. Good to try to keep a variety when possible. Absolutely.

24:01 OK, let me play this next clip. This is again, we're actually going in order here. So now he's just finished pitching us a little bit, and now he's actually going to tell us a little bit about what we're going to get into want. To talk to you guys today about something that I think everybody's going to come in contact with in regards to pursuing your goal or dream or starting on a different entrepreneurial path. The path less desired to walk in life as it may because why? Because everybody else is doing the same thing. It's a crowded path. When you start venturing down this entrepreneurial Rd. you'll notice that not a whole lot of people around here, man, not a whole lot of people are willing to put themselves through what you're willing to put yourself through to have a life that most people will never, ever have. And that's OK.

24:48 You don't want to lie that everybody else has. I don't want to lie everybody else has. Why? Because that's my prerogative. Like Bobby Brown, I do what I want to do. That's my life. I've always marched to the beat of a different drum. You listen to this podcast, that's probably you as well. You just kind of feel like you don't really do what everybody else is doing. You know? Why did you go to work every day everybody else is doing? I don't know why. Why do you want to do what everybody else is doing? Why would you want to be vanilla ice cream? Why, why, why, why, I don't know. Good question. But here's the thing guys, going down that path less traveled fear is going to creep up more often than not. You know the whole adage of fear, false evidence appearing real. I mean, fear is there to protect you. Your mind is there to protect you from doing something uncomfortable. Your, your mind kind of always goes to the familiar. So you're familiar with doing something one way and it's comfortable.

25:37 Your mind wants to stay there. Why? Because your mind is just trying to consume calories or consume burning calories. That's it. Your your brain wants to do as less work as possible. OK, first I failed as a host. And I should have said at the top of all of this, the name of this episode that we're evaluating motivation from not letting fear control you. That's the name of this episode. And I should have gotten that cue when Dr. called out the fact that they listened to the wrong episode and we were talking about the titles being similar. And I never said it, and I didn't say it at the top either. So shame on me. OK, so that was the start and I'll ask a question, but I know Jonathan wants to chime in.

26:20 My question really to the group is could anybody right now tell me what that episode is about? Granted, I told you the title, but do you know based on that, what was it? Maybe minute and under 90 seconds of a setup? So with that, I'm going to go to Jonathan and give him the floor. Go ahead, Jonathan. Yeah, I'm going to say no to your question there. It was a lot of advice, but it wasn't specific advice. And that's where this is where it started to fall a little bit apart from me. He's got a lot of great information and he's doing a lot with it, but it wasn't specific enough to let me know what was happening, let me know who it was for, and actually be valuable advice for a specific person.

27:04 Like, I thought it was very good overarching advice that you might get if they don't know who they're talking to. And I think that's where it fell apart a little bit for me. Like there needs to be a focus on who he's helping. Thank you for that, Jonathan. And I know later in today's show we're going to play a clip that you suggested we play that you think would help if it maybe it happened earlier. I'll explain in a moment. Let me check in with the crew. Go ahead, Ralph. I mean this in a very gracious way, I felt like 14 minutes after listening to this, it was just rambling of platitudes and all of those things in their in themselves are great things to talk about.

27:47 But if he just had some structure and if he had a plan of what his goal was the the key take away for the episode, then I think he could have made all that work. OK, that's a fairpoint. I think. What if I were to sum up everything you're saying is adding a little more structure, having an outline perhaps, and maybe he does, right? I'm making an assumption here. But even if he does, I think the outline it would benefit him to just have a clear path for him to follow. Just include, you know, bullet point story, bullet point advice, bullet point story, bullet point advice, what however it looks to you, but to have that road map as the host.

28:28 But Mark, that's part of it too. Like there was no story. There was no, here's what I went through, here's what I've done, here's what we we hear that he did it, but we don't have any why in that? And it's, it leaves me like, OK, who is this guy? What is his journey? What is the value he's giving me? Fairpoint and Jonathan, I think that this then I'm going to play before we move into the branding area of the podcast, I am going to play that clip that I teased that Jonathan suggested and then we'll hear from Jonathan about that. But before I do, I saw Cliff wanted to add something as well. Go ahead, Cliff. I just wanted to say what I heard, if I were to summarize in this last section, is wow.

29:08 As you know, it is so crowded out there because everybody's doing what you're doing. But then all of a sudden we had a complete 180 turn. By the way, nobody's out there willing to do what you're willing to do. And all, by the way, fear will get in you every single time and all, by the way, the mind is trying to conserve energy. But why are you telling me any of this? Again, that goes back to some other points too. Really understanding the sharing, the why is so important in this case. I do want to also say, by the way, that I think Sean has a wonderful radio voice. And I think if he can just adjust that pacing a little bit and maybe the dictation a little bit, he would be phenomenal.

29:53 And there is something also to be said about the confidence that comes through his voice. And Dave in the chat is saying maybe more effort first connecting to the listener, less trying to impress us. OK. And Sean, by the way, if I'm sure you're listening and this is all out of love and respect, we want to improve this show for you as best we can. And we'll get to it in a moment. Jonathan has a really good point, a good direction for you. But first, let's hear from Sid. Go ahead, Sid. I think that this conversation about structure outlined all really valuable. I think he could could have said something along the lines of today we're going to talk about the one thing that stops most entrepreneurs in their journey and that's fear. And I'm going to tell you three ways to overcome fear in your journey so that it doesn't stop you. But first, let me tell you how I experienced fear. And then we get into him and we know what what? There was a moment for him that fear stopped him from doing something.

30:54 And then he can share his story with us. We get to know him, and then we all of a sudden get to identify with him because every one of us in this room is an entrepreneur and we all understand fear. So we're going to understand this story, and then we're going to get his tips to overcome fear along our journey. That simple little change in the structure would make this episode so much more impactful. Thank you, Sid. I'm going to go to you, Jonathan now because aside from this clip that we're going to play, you had a lot of positive things to say about this podcast and this podcaster. And we talked about it privately as well. And you said multiple times to me, this show has so much potential.

31:35 So would you mind setting up this clip for us and then I'll play it? The clip that I suggested actually happens very close to the end of the episode, and it does exactly what Sid was asking for. It tells a little bit of a story because facts don't matter ever, really. We don't remember facts, we remember stories. And to get to jump in at the beginning of the podcast with his story, and I honestly think that this should have been the hook for the entire episode. It will help to give the whole entire episode structure. And if he had that that structure and built off of the story, I think it could have been an amazing episode. Let's hear the clip. You don't think I was freaking scared as hell sitting in the bank going?

32:17 What the hell are you doing, McClellan? What are you doing? I had no idea what I was paying for. I had no idea. I know. I had no clue what I was getting myself into. Here's what I knew. I knew that I was willing to put in the work. I knew that I was willing to be coachable. I knew that this person could help me because I listened to them for six years, motivate me, encourage me and tell me to get out of my own damn way, get out of my own head and just take a shot. I knew I could trust him. That's it, man. I could trust him, you know? I could trust myself for the first time in a long time. I could trust myself to do the work.

32:58 But fear, Yeah, there's been a lot of fear from moments on this journey. I can't let that stop me. I have to notice the fear when it comes and recognize that this area of opportunity I need to focus on to grow. I really would have liked to see was him tighten up that story a little bit and put it right, smack the front of the episode. Start with that and then expound on the episode from that story. Give us specifics because what he did and it's why they're, you know, rambling of the platitudes. What he did was he gave a lot of advice that is valuable if there's a reference point for it and there's a specific person that you're helping. Because specifics allow your audience to latch on. Because when we heard that story, we could say, Oh my God, that's, that's what I went through. And that's going to get them to actually pay more attention to it.

33:50 They're going to pay attention to those things that they connect with, that they see in themselves. He was giving a lot of broad stuff, and that gives every single listener the opportunity to say he's not talking about me. And that's not going to help him land any coaching clients. Thank you, Jonathan. I think this is wonderful advice. I hope it's well received from Sean. Yeah, leading with a story that is packed with advice within the story, lessons learned from the story. I think that is a great way to connect with the audience. Going back to what Dave was saying, making that effort to connect with your listener and Sid in the chat puts the pacing in This clip is so much better, makes you lean in.

34:32 And I think maybe that's similar to what Dr. was pointing out about another episode she had listened to, I think that same type of style. And Renee, thank you for the the great feedback in the chat saying I'm learning so much from these critiques. I'm glad we are having a blast doing them. So I'm glad that they are being received well. Yes, I think there's something to be said for what Sid and and Jonathan were saying, the buy in. Like do we have buy in by that time? If it's 10 minutes into it and he has this great story, is it lost? Because as good as that clip was, it's like, OK, great. Why are you telling me all this? And again, I know I'm being extra harsh because I really didn't listen to the to all the episodes. I'm more criticizing myself because I'm hearing myself in this a lot.

35:19 That's why. Maybe I'm being a little overly. Because I think he's got a lot to say. It's just, it's just the structure. Thank you, Ralph, did you have something else? I did. I actually had a different feel when I listened to that clip. Now, I've listened to this three Times Now after today. And as soon as he said $10,000, I felt icky. It shouted me back to what he said at the beginning of the episode. And I said, is he fixing to try to sell me a $10,000 coaching program? And what he said was he had no idea what he was doing. But then he contradicts himself and said I listened to this guy for six years. If he had tightened that up and said because that would have been a great, a great on ramp to his coaching program, But leading with 10,000 and making a statement that I know no idea what I was getting into, and then contradicting yourself and saying I listened to this guy for six years.

36:06 He could have made that a huge trumpet to get people into his coaching program. Because here's a very constructive thing. The things he said throughout that are all things all of us could learn from. Yeah. So I think they're for Sean to think about is just perception, how some people may perceive it. I'm sure not everybody perceives it that way, but I think that I don't think Ralph is alone either. Again, that so that does go back to, you know, when you start pitching right out of the gate, some people then may start thinking the rest of the episode might feel like a pitch to them. It's just something to think about. And again, you can't please everyone, right? So it's just a matter of if that resonates with Sean to to consider a little bit of a restructure.

36:52 I think there were really good aspects of that story and I think the $10,000, the only thing that because what I felt that did was it brought, you know, some gravity to what his fear was. And I think that was important to be there. If he hadn't tried to sell at the beginning, then I think that would have felt much better. And actually, if that had been right at the beginning, it would have felt much better. Right. Yeah, because ultimately what he was explaining in that clip is he was fearful of dropping 10 grand and he was walking us through that that fear and he was walking us through the resolution that he came to. And that was the value.

37:32 That was the lesson. OK, then since we're playing clips, I am going to play one more. I was going to wait and save this for the technical side of things, but I know we're also getting short on time. But this is a clip I, I think several people suggested, but I think Ashley, you were the at least the first one I saw that suggested it. So that's I guess why I'm calling you out. But this is around mic technique. When you start venturing down this entrepreneurial Rd. you'll notice it. Not a whole lot of people around here, man. Not a whole lot of people are willing to put themselves through what you're willing to put yourself through to have a life that most people will never, ever have.

38:12 And that's OK. You don't want to lie to your body on test. I don't want to lie to your body on test. Why? Because that's my prerogative. Like Bobby Brown. So if you are a podcaster for any amount of time, you probably noticed the plosives. The plosives, Ashley, did you want to share a little bit about that? Sure. I just. Think that what could help is maybe putting the mic a little bit further away into the side, because when you say plosives, you're putting a lot of air onto the mic and you can really hear that. Same with FS plosives and fricatives both put a lot of air on the mic and it can be distracting. Yeah. So I think leaning back a little bit from the mic or getting yourself a a better windscreen, a foam covering for the mic, I don't know what kind of mic you're using, Sean, But yeah, I think getting backing up a little bit from the mic and protecting the mic from those plosives would be helpful.

39:08 Yeah, Cliff, go ahead. The way that I've always suggested is a little bit of the opposite. I actually tell people to get really close to that mic with ideally within one inch of the actual mic. However, the important thing is that the mic is never in front of your mouth, but it is. It is literally right next to your mouth, pointed at your mouth so that all of your wind goes straight past the microphone and the and it's close enough to capture that audio as it's coming out. Thank you, Cliff. It's so funny. Thank you for saying that. It's so funny because here I am not giving that advice yet. I'm staring at myself on the screen right now and that's exactly how I have my mic set up. And then it was very intentionally set up that way, but they're here.

39:57 I am forgetting to share that. So I'm glad you're here. And The thing is, is anytime we tell somebody to back up from that mic, we introduce more audio noise from the background. Yeah, agreed. And I am. I'm about an inch away from it and it is off to the side a a little bit. And you're right, if I back up now, I'm sure some of you can tell. It's just it doesn't sound quite the same. It's a little more hollow, right? And then when I lean in and get to about an inch away, it's much more rich in sound and I'm not popping my peas. Go ahead, Sid. Yeah. I just have a question about this boom arm or stand which is because my I have a boom arm that is rickety and I need to get a new one that I've been thinking about this so I get another boom arm or do I get a stand to accomplish what both of you are talking about? I just invited Janae up because I thought Janae would be a great person to answer that.

40:55 I think, you know, I actually was thinking. I have been thinking lately. Neither. I've been thinking. Why aren't more of us just using lapel mics? Because they're just so, well, OK, Tell me why, Cliff. Oh my gosh, lapel makes mostly condenser and also more than an inch away from your mouth. Brings in more room echo, more ambient room audio noise. Certainly there are people who focus on how they look on camera and they prefer not to have the thing, but man lapel microphones cannot carry the full body resonance of your voice. Interesting. Yeah.

41:36 So I don't want to say I disagree. I think maybe why I in, you know, anybody can tell. I don't generally use a lapel mic. But when I was ATV producer handful of years ago, that's all we used, right, 'cause we that was all on camera stuff and and that's how they preferred to do the microphone thing and it always sounded great, right. But, and maybe that's just because we were using some top of the line equipment. It sounded great, you think, but I promise you this. Go take any of those old television programs that you were a part of and strip the audio and go for a walk and listen to it. You want to expand further? What? What will I find?

42:17 What I think you'll find is that when you are viewing video and and the data that's coming into your brain to consume is mostly visual, you will overlook the audio quality. But if you think about a podcast, even though today there's a lot more video that's happening in the space of podcasting, most people still consume podcast in audio form. And I can tell you right now that the audio quality of a lapel microphone can never give you the quality of a microphone one inch away from your mouth right up there. It's night and day difference. OK, fair enough. So I think then and thank you, Cliff, I appreciate your take on that. And so to answer Sid's question, I think if you're thinking about boom Mike versus Mike stand, the, the, the only reason really I see for for a boom Mike is just to keep the microphone out of the picture altogether.

43:16 So if that's what's important to you, then maybe you want to experiment with that. But my personal taste is to have a have an arm or a stand, right? Like I use a low profile arm so that it's not taking up a lot of the, the video. All due respect to Alex Sanfilippo, he uses an arm, but he's not using a low profile arm. And it's always just coming right across the screen and it distracts me personally. So I like to have, if you're going to use an arm, if you're going to use a stand, I just like to make sure it's as inconspicuous as it can be and I would lean toward an arm or a stand.

43:57 Well, I just wanted to say that I've been on my lapel mic the entire episode. It's the one of the Rode lapel mics. It's actually I'm sure it's not as good as my plug in mic, but it's. You sound clear, You sound clear. And yeah, but it's probably not as high quality or just not as quality as a regular, a regular mic. But still, yeah, it sounds, it sounds good. I mean, I'm walking around my house, so. Hopefully that's nice too. That's convenient. Janae has joined us. Janae, do you agree with the idea of a boom arm, mic stand, etcetera or do you think which of those do you think is better? Hey, good morning, everyone.

44:38 Each of those microphones have a purpose and like Cliff said, you know there are different things that they are capturing. A boom arm is really great because you can move the microphone away from you when you're done recording your podcast and back to work. Mike stand might capture some of those bumps on the desk. So again, those are some of the things that you want to think about now. Lapel mic is also great because especially how close it is from you and how much equalizer work you're putting into it, which means that some of these Rd. caster pros have equalizers and parametric parametric equalizer available where you can cut out the noise, you can cut out the bass, you can cut out some of the things that so it's only sending in your volume and based on what Cliff said the and what you mentioned also mark the microphones that are used at the studio.

45:37 They're not just capturing the mic, the audio from the lapel mic, right, They also have boom mic. So they're they're capturing audio multiple sources, but then it's also going through a ton of processing compressors and equalizers and all those things which most of us don't really have access to, right? Or unless we want to spend the big bucks. So from that perspective and where you want to be a cost effective way, the best way to is to get a microphone that works for you and again, test multiple different types of microphones. That makes sense. And as I'm listening to the conversation and the clips that you've played this gentleman, he's looks like he's very animated from the audio as well because he's moving around and I haven't seen the video, but just listening to the audio alone, I was like, OK, this guy needs some kind of shotgun mic that's just pointing at him and he can just be animated all around the whole show and you'll hear him really nice and clear. That's.

46:42 Thank you, Janae. Great advice. Appreciate that. All right. I wanted with these last several minutes of the show, I want to talk a little bit. Let's zoom out a little bit. I think we've given plenty of advice on the episode itself. Let's talk a little bit about the branding and discoverability of this show. As we've said, the name of the show is the space between. Does that land for you? Do we think that that title is going to be effective for discoverability as far as his target audience goes? Yes, DRI. Think that maybe there's an opportunity to get more eyes on that title if he were to change it in some way. Now I will tell you that one of the as a, as a podcast producer, one of the my big resources that I use is Pod news. James Cridland, I hope you're listening. There is a tiny, tiny little field in the upper right hand corner of the screen and it's super tiny. But if you put the name of a podcast in that field, up will come basically your podcast, you click on the cover art and up will come a lot of information.

48:03 For instance, I was trying to figure out who was his host, Was it Lipson? Was it Buzz Sprout was and something came up that said this page is not it's no longer with us or something like that, which was the first time I've ever seen that. And I use this resource a lot and it just floored me. So I think there's, I think there's an issue with the name #1 like 30 other podcasts with the same name came up. That's a problem. That's something I noticed as well. Yeah. When searching for his podcast, I noticed a couple of things. One, yeah, like you said, I noticed a lot of shows called the space between or a variation of which, you know, that could be a problem for him.

48:52 I noticed that. And I noticed when I was searching on some platforms, like I think I was searching for it on Apple podcast and it didn't come up. That's a little startling too. And also, and I think you told me this too, some platforms, we weren't finding it on a lot of platforms not. Just Apple. Exactly exactly. So I'm wondering if he's self-publishing or something like that. I'm not. I'm not quite sure. I would take a look at what he has. If I'm Sean, I'm looking at, you know, where have I connected my show, what platforms have I connected them to all, at least the major platforms and is it working? I think that's a big area for him to explore and make sure it's all set up properly because I think if it, because it's something is messed up, we don't know what it is or who messed it up, whether it's a user error or a platform error.

49:44 But the bottom line is that's killing his discoverability. And I think that the name the space between like I I get it. Especially after reading the description it makes sense. But I think. On its own are people. Going to really know what it is when they're, even if they're in like the mental health category or in health and fitness category, you know, they don't know what the show is based on the title. Right, so my little test is if I'm at a bar, always includes a bar. If I'm in a bar and I'm talking to someone and someone says, hey, what's the name of your podcast? And I say the space between if they have to ask me, oh wow, what's what's it about then? The title is not doing its job.

50:28 I'm thinking about your show that's yet to be put out. Yeah. You would say podcast help desk. That's going to give somebody a very clear idea of what it is. Janae, did you want to chime in? I. Clicked on the link that's in here on Cliff House. I went to the website and I tapped on the Apple podcast logo that he has and here I'm seeing the name of the podcast is motivation, comma, inspiration, comma, purpose, comma, passion, comma from the space between with McClellan. So it's clearly him. He's clearly using keywords to lead right with with the title. But I think it's really that that could be a problem too. I hear what you're saying.

51:12 Right. So in the whoever his host is, if he has a host, whoever's host is, I think he's putting all of those words in the title field instead of putting those words in the description. Somebody might search in a Apple podcast library, they may search motivational, or they may search inspirational. I think he's probably hoping that that will boost his to the top, but I don't think that that's, you know, those those are such. Generic. Words and it's confusing at the same time. I would encourage him to think about yeah, absolutely. If he's going to keep the name, I think lead with the name. And I do want to compliment him.

51:53 I like his logo. It's eye-catching. I love his logo I. Love the colors. Yeah, the black and blue. I mean, maybe that's, I'm being partial because those are similar to the colors I use in in Ironic Media's logo. But I do like that. And yes, there's a microphone there. I know to some podcasters, it's a big pet peeve to include a microphone in your podcast logo. I'd probably remove it. I just because I don't think it's necessary. And you can make the letters bigger on the on the tile itself, But yeah. So I think all of those words, the all those keywords motivate. I think he could use some of those in a subtitle or a title extension.

52:35 I think that's probably where it would be of good use. And also, we're talking about branding. So I want to talk just a little bit about his website. The black. I love the colors because, well, that's neither here nor there. But when you see the website, it's very difficult to see that the the writing the text because I think it's too thin. It's that blue color against the black and it the blue is too thin for me. I think if it was just a little thicker text it would be so much better. One of the other things I noticed Dr. Thank you for that. One of the other things I noticed about the website is because of the color scheme, the a lot of the hyperlinks are kind of hidden.

53:25 You can't see them because they're blending in with the background color. And that's going to really be a challenge for him as far as getting more downloads, more plays, people digging into more episodes. Because literally the link that says on the on the right side of the web page that says more episodes, you don't see anything there. You can't tell where to click, how to go to see more episodes. So that's something to really be mindful of. OK. So with that though, I will say thank you to Sean. Thank you for allowing us to share our feedback, constructive criticism, etcetera. And if you had to take away one thing today, I think the biggest thing I would say to you is thinking about that structure because it did come up several times. It's so important to have an outline and have one that really helps you move the needle forward to keep pushing the episode forward.

54:22 Understand your structure. It doesn't have to be extremely detailed, but it does need to keep you moving toward the moving in the right direction. So I encourage you to start there, if nothing else, and let's see how you're doing and please check back in and let's see as you make changes, improvements, etcetera, we want to follow along and see what you're up to. So thank you again to Sean McClellan, that podcast, the space between. We will have links in the show notes to check it out and support this community member. Big shout out. Thank you to Cliff for being a part of this one.

55:03 Again, we love having you here and hope you can keep joining us whenever you can on Thursdays for these evaluations and any day of the week you'd like to join us. We are back tomorrow, 7:00 AM Eastern, wrapping up the week with our wins from the week, but also talking all things podcasting as well. Come join us 7:00 AM live here on Clubhouse, YouTube, Facebook, etcetera. And if you can't, that's OK, you can pick up the podcast just a couple hours later. Until tomorrow. Make it a great day everybody. Take care.