504. 5 Storytelling Tricks That Make 'The Daily' So Addictive

0:05 Good morning podcasters, today is Monday, April 27th, 2026 and today obsession worthy Podcasts returns as we breakdown how the daily goes from Tilly Norwood to Disney to make Holly's a Hollywood's AI story clear, human and a must listen. So if you're listening live on Clubhouse, hit the share button, bottom, top, right hand, side of the screen and share it. However, Clubhouse lets you. And if you're catching us via podcast, YouTube, etcetera, please share this with a fellow podcaster. And now give us about 30 seconds and we'll get things rolling. Thanks for being here.

0:52 The Podcasting Morning Chat is powered by Ironic Media, helping podcasters launch, Polish and grow great shows, and by Content Creators Accountant, helping creators build real business behind their content. Good morning again podcasting Morning chat. Thank you so much for being here. I am your host Mark Ronick and currently on stage with me. My Co hosts we have Nick Naulback, Dr. Faye, Jonathan Howard, Sid Meadows, Ralph Estep and Alex Baelish. Also, we have from the audience Tide, AKA Nikki joining us, per usual.

1:40 Love having you join us. Everybody is welcome to join us live here on Clubhouse on the virtual stage if you choose, Just raise your hand and we will bring you on up. And a reminder that really anybody can at any time ask a podcasting question, even if it's not related to what we're talking about. That's totally cool. If you're here live with us and you have a question about your podcast, you want some feedback, some some insight, we are happy to do that for you. Mark, I got a question before we start the show. Sure, sure. I got a question. So what happens when you're doing a video podcast and the second you go live, your nose starts to itch? You scratch it, you scratch myself, man. I've caught myself doing that lately out, you know, watching myself back on the video and I'm doing a little editing here and there.

2:32 And I watch myself just kind of like rubbing my nose and not even realizing that I'm doing it on camera. And it looks a little silly, to be honest. Well, thank you. It just hit me all of a sudden there. I thought I was going to have to like dive out of the video or something. Man, it's brutal this morning. The allergies are starting here, I think in Delaware. Yeah. Well, you should see out here in western North Carolina, the thick pollen all over the place. I mean, it is crazy. I actually, because I haven't turned on our water yet outside. We're we're doing that actually this week. I think the weather, it's finally safe to do that, but So what I had to do instead was I took a leaf blower and just blew my whole deck off and just watch layers upon layers of pollen just blow off. It's insane how much pollen we get here in Western North Carolina.

3:20 Before we keep going here, I do want to remind you that if you are a live listener or curious and want to join us live, maybe 7:00 AM Eastern hasn't been the best time for you. Well, maybe then we've fixed that as of May the 4th, May the Fourth be with you. We are going to start the podcasting morning chat an hour later than we normally did. So instead of 787 AM Eastern, we're going to start at 8:00 AM Eastern a week from today. We think that this is going to provide us with more guest opportunities because 7:00 AM tends to be a little too early for most guests. And we also think that doing it a little later is going to potentially be better for our discoverability.

4:03 So that's what we're going to do Monday, May the fourth. Come join us at 8:00 AM Eastern everywhere and you can find us. Find out how you can do that everywhere at Podcasting Morning chat.com/join us. Last thing I want to do, and this is maybe appropriately so, I want to do a little bit of AI talk here just for a moment because Nick hipped me to this this morning, or actually it was last night, but I didn't hear it till this morning. Nick was playing with Gemini. And I know, Ralph, how much you love Suno and I think Suno has a little competition now. Now Nick Gemini's been offering a music creation feature for a while now, but I guess they've upped the game. Is that right?

4:52 Is that fair to say? Hey, good morning, everybody. Good morning. Yeah, so Google's been, they have all kinds of different AI tools that they're kind of experimenting with and playing with. And this music generation tool, it's actually a model called Lyria or I think it's Lyria, I don't know if I'm pronouncing right. They probably a few months ago now added Lyria into Gemini directly. So if you have the Gemini app, you can click the button similar to like create an image and you can create a music, create music, sound bite or whatever. And when they initially released it, it was, I'll say it was 8 seconds or 20 seconds. And that's all that they would give you. And more recently, I'd say probably within the last couple of weeks here, they've upgraded that and now allow you to generate complete songs directly inside of Gemini.

5:39 And what's kind of cool about it is when you click on the the create music button is it gives you like a bunch of preset styles. So the one that I chose that Mark is about to play here, like I saw 90s rap and I immediately clicked that one. He's like those immediately where I gravitated towards. So it's kind of nice because you can select the presets or if you don't want to use one of the presets, you can just explain to AI what you want. But I was really curious how it was going to turn out and I thought it was pretty darn impressive. All right, so I will share this clip that Nick put together with Gemini. It's a it's basically the prompt was to create this 90s style rap, create it for about a podcast about podcasting. So we'll play a little bit of it because I think it's a little bit of a longer song, but let's hear how it sounds. Observe the signal.

6:38 Peek at the threshold of the booth. Observe the signal. Yeah, I did kind of have that feel to it. Well, I wanted to play with it because, as you know, if you're a regular listener here, you know, we've been playing a lot with Suno.

7:19 Well, Ralph has really, as far as little jingles, little things that go on regularly on this show that we've decided to make live music out of it. And I wanted to try to do the same. Now I again, just like Suno, It's hard to tell Gemini to make something short and sweet. It likes to make if it's creating music, it likes to make much longer versions than what we're what we'd prefer. With that said, I will play a piece of this. Now, I just told Gemini to make a Jingle, a radio style Jingle about the podcasting morning show. Because by the way, that's another thing that's happening on Monday is we're changing the name from podcasting morning chat to podcasting morning show. So I was just getting ahead of it and here's what Gemini came up with.

8:18 The sun is up. The coffee's brewing got that. Good. Vibe. Feeling. The podcasting morning show. Yeah, the podcasting morning show. Get your day started. Get your day started. It has that Blink 182 kind of feel to it, I feel like. And then here's another one. I tried to tell it to go a little more 80s. It's more like a theme song than a Jingle. Yeah, the podcasting morning show. There it goes.

9:20 There it is, the podcasting morning show theme. Don't think I'm going to adopt that one BC Did you have more to say? Yeah. I got to ask, did you say that you fed the lyrics itself or did it? No, they're just the same lyrics that came up with by itself. It came up with the same lyrics by itself. Yeah. Now I thought it sound. But overall, just the quality of the music, the way that it sounded, it felt a little more natural. Didn't sound quite as AI to me as Suno. Ralph. Your thoughts as a rabid Suno user? Not bad. Not bad. Now, I've got a few of them, too, if you want to share them in another day. I've got some. Great. I got some screaming at the beginning of rap, screams at the beginning. So if we want to play some of those down the road, we have to do that. But not bad.

10:00 I'm impressed. All right? Not, not, not bad. Very cool. All right, well, let's shift some gears here. Now see, I was going to hit the wrong button, but now I'm very afraid to hit the wrong button because Speaking of jingles, I don't want the wrong button Jingle played on me. So there's the right button I'm wanted to actually play for you. Let's get into today's obsession worthy podcast. It's back the series that we do every other Monday, and Jonathan is taking us into an episode of The Daily about Hollywood's AI moment, which I believe is the name of the actual episode. What I like about this one is that we're not just talking about AI. We're looking at how a show takes a massive, complicated topic and makes it feel clear.

10:47 It makes it feel human and easy to follow. So as we go through this, I want us to keep asking ourselves, how can we do this on our own shows? Even if we're not making a big narrative news podcast, how can we take some of this stuff that that makes this show so obsession worthy and alley it to our own podcast. O with that, Jonathan, take it away. Yes, All right. So yeah, obviously AI is touching every aspect of our lives, so it makes sense that it would be doing the same in Hollywood. So we're going to take a look at that. And really what we're looking at is that Hollywood's facing a turning point. AI is no longer theoretical. It's actually happening.

11:29 And it's starting to change how movies, writing, creative work, all of that is actually made. It actually impacted the Oscars this year. And the real story is not only the technology is what's happening to the entire industry. As you know, we're all kind of being forced to rethink the future. So the host and I'm always, I always mess up his last name. But Michael Barbero opens every episode really simply with what's happening right now, why this moment matters and who's going to help us understand it. That is his intro. There's no performance. It's just here's the thing that we're going to figure out and understand today. So it's a very clear and repeatable intro.

12:12 So what it does, it signals relevance, creates the curiosity gap because you're going to learn about what you're going to learn about and it sets the expectations for the show. It's clean, repeatable, and always recognize. And that's a really key part of the framework that sets this podcast apart and makes it obsession worthy. Yeah. All right. Yeah, go ahead. No, I agree. And I mean, I know we're going to get into the intro here and I think what they do with the intro felt a lot more doable is the best word I can use as far as if we're applying stuff that we can learn from popular podcast. It's not like a diary of this of Aceo kind of intro where it's very flashy, very fast-paced, but it's still locked me in.

12:58 It still grabbed my attention right away and there were a lot of good reason for it, so I won't dig in too deep until we play it and then we can talk about it. Yeah. And it what it does is it it gives us a real world example that explains the bigger issue and that's really key. So we're going to hear about Particle 6, which is Auk Company billing itself as the world's leading AI production studio and. You want me to play that now? Go ahead. Yep. All right, here we go. This is the daily on Sunday. We all knew TV was dead, but thought why not squeeze in one last development meeting we had? This is a video, a kind of comedy sketch, produced by a company in the United Kingdom called Particle 6.

13:44 Now Particle 6 bills itself as the world's leading AI production commissioner said no AI generated 100 better ideas in minutes, perfectly aligned to channel data, viewing figures and optimized for the audience. So everything in this video, the voices you're hearing, the words that they're saying, all of it was generated by artificial intelligence. And the star of this video who did it is. Tilly Norwood, 100. Tilly Norwood, an AI generated actress. Like if a Sunday roast went to drama school and got BAFTA optimized. But can she cry on Graham Norton? Yeah, so we open up and, you know, before we get into a full analysis, we're given something really specific to react to.

14:28 And that matters because AI in Hollywood is huge and hard to understand. But an AI actress, that's something that's instantly understandable. You get what's happening when you hear about an AI actress. But this opening does 3 really important things really fast. And I think it's important to look at those things because if we can do these things in the opening of our podcast, we'll be able to really capture people and get them hooked into what we're what we want to talk about. I know, Jonathan, that you have your specific three things, and I'm curious if other people are open to sharing. Like, what is it about the intro that maybe you found that it hooked you? What were some reasons why this intro actually hooked you into this episode of The Daily?

15:17 Yeah, Brandon, go ahead. It's OK. I was going to say, like, what kind of really hooked me unexpectedly was that it wasn't a generic UK accent that they gave to this AI star of the show. This was a very specific regional accent that for me, if I wasn't told moments before this was an AI generated star of the show, I would have thought was a real person. This they have a similar accent to the woman who does the Bridgeton podcast, a very specific regional accent. And I just found that so cool. But also kind of like, ah, if I didn't know and I just kind of fell into this and I didn't realize a long time after, how would I feel if I then realized this person wasn't real? Yeah, but I thought it was very, very effective overall, to be sure.

16:15 Yeah. I mean, it's that I think that's some of what Jonathan was saying here at the top, is that it, it really makes it relatable for us. It makes us understand right away what the problem might be. When we can hear how real that this AI actor sounds, you know, we can instantly relate to the frustration that Hollywood has around this type of actor, if you will. I also personally, Jonathan, I liked I'm even catching little things like at the very beginning when they say, you know, this is the daily, the that little musical intro that they play, it's short, it's sweet, it's really recognizable, even though I don't I'm not a daily listener, Full disclosure.

16:59 And I noticed that right away, like having, you know, a lot of times podcasters, I think make the mistake of playing long, drawn out music. And I've been one of those people to make that mistake. And look at you could make the argument that I'm still making the mistake playing 30 seconds of music and I'm doing it because it's a live show too, and we need those 30 seconds to get ourselves together. But my point is that sometimes just having something really short and sweet, you know, think about the TV networks, how they all have just like these little quick musical jingles, if you will. NBC has their music. I think it's, you know, it's something like that, right? It's something that you can really grab onto and remember and those little things really help create loyalty among your audience because they start looking and listening for those types of things. It reminds me also of Smartlist.

17:53 Smartlist has a similar same type of music too, and it's very short and sweet and it's kind of catchy too. So I just wanted to call that out as something that I think is really valuable to include with your podcast. And I also loved Jonathan, the way that they incorporated clips throughout the intro to give us context. It's not just somebody spoon feeding us the story. They're actually giving us context, giving us something that we can grab onto and identify with to really help set the stage. So those are two big things for me. And to comment on what BC said about if you didn't know it was AI being almost upset about it really truly highlights the point of this episode, which there's a lot of things that are happening that do we even know, you know, like people's accents are being changed, all those things. And how does it make you feel about it? And just by what BC said, I think that was purposeful in the fact that they did that.

18:52 They made it very specific because would you know and would you be upset about it? So, so one of the things that this does, one of the three is it really gives you an explanation, an example before an explanation. We're not starting, and I talked about this with one of the previous podcast. It's not a lecture about AI. That's not what's going to get people interested. It's giving them a really weird, specific, slightly uncomfortable thing that's happening in the world that we're talking about. And it's a very clear, easy to understand example. Specificity is always going to win. People latch on to that specific thing. It creates emotional contrast because it's kind of a funny clip. It's, you know, TV's dead, but we figured we'd do one more thing.

19:38 You know, here's this thing that we're going to do. But the implication is actually really serious. If AI is generating the voices, the words, the actress, the performances, the pitch, what happens to the people that used to do that? And that's immediately visible in writing that first clip in that first, I think it was 40 seconds. So that's two and three. It gives the listener an anchor object, something that they can relate back to. So Tilly Norwood becomes a thing we can hold on to. AI in Hollywood is vague, but an AI actress named Tilly Norwood is concrete. And that the more specific that you are, the stronger things are going to hook people. But it gives them a human connection as well. And that even though not human.

20:25 Gives a human connection and that's what people are going to latch onto. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's so key, having that anchor, like you said, I think giving people something that they can anchor to throughout the episode, it really does change the experience of the episode because yeah, you're kind of, you've got that now in the back of your mind as you're listening to it. I'm one of the things jumping ahead that I appreciated about the show is that, like you said, Jonathan, and they teased it in the intro, the way that it really effects Hollywood down to a very deep level that I sometimes wouldn't have even thought about until hearing this. So again, yeah, having that anchor to to kind of relate to when you're going through this story, I think really adds a lot of context to the to the show.

21:14 BC wanted to chime in. Go ahead. BC yeah. For example, when we talk about how deep it is, I kind of when I'm sitting here and ask myself, what brings me to the point of would I be mad if I didn't know and we talked about the name Tilly Norwood. I found myself asking, oh, if I didn't know this was an AI person, I would have asked myself, oh, is that a stage name? Is that a real name? And then I realized when we hear someone's name, we immediately that indicates to us this person has had a life, they have a past, they have an experience before them prior to this point. But now with that given revelation, it's like, oh, that's not there. This is not a person.

21:55 They don't actually exist. So it's almost like we it kind of conflicts with our own human programming to give a non existent a name because we have a bunch of, like I said, programmed ways of perceiving what certain elements of identity inherently give us. So I think that's part of the struggle for me anyway, regarding, you know, what's my personal emotional take away is from this particular kind of experiment. And I think that's the beauty of this intro is that it brings us into our own experience, our own perspectives by just telling the story.

22:38 Like, you're going to receive this, that intro differently than I'm going to receive it. And I whatever that does, it doesn't matter, right? What what matters is that it's got us emotionally invested into the episode. Go ahead, Jonathan. Yeah, no, but I want to push back a little bit on BC because now she has a history, a story and a past. She's got those things now. Meaning that she's been programmed to have those things. Well, no, I mean, she is now part of our thoughts. She's part of something that really happened, so. Right. Interesting. Just pushing back a little bit. AI is a little crazy.

23:18 I don't like it. I think Ralph, did you have? Oh, yeah, go ahead. And I'm going to. I'm going to be, I'm going to be the odd one in the room. Does it matter? Because actors and actresses by their very nature are playing a character. So for me, this didn't connect with me at all. I could care less, you know, I feel bad for the actors and actresses who are going to lose work. But if I'm trying to get entertained, these people are playing a role anyway, so who the hell cares? That's just my personal take. It is. It did. This episode didn't connect with me from the very beginning. And I don't know why, but it just did not make me think much because I thought, yeah, OK, great. Everybody who's an actor and actress is playing a role. They're playing pretend.

23:59 Like when I was a kid, we used to play pretend. That's what this is. So these these inroads and AI, the only purple this is hurting is the actors and actresses. And I do have empathy for them. But if the goal is entertainment, who cares? Interesting, Ralph. And to a point I agree with you. I also though, think about some of the most famous, the most popular entertainers that are out there. And I think what makes them even more attractive, more likable, more charismatic is, is that we learn who they are. We think we do, we learn who they are off screen, right? That's the purpose of things like going on The Tonight Show or one of these late night talk shows or going on a Saturday Night Live or, or appearing on different podcasts, right? We're learning about the person behind it. And this is not the case.

24:53 Let's just say that. Right. Can you do you understand where I'm going with that? I do. I totally get it. But I would push back a little bit and say, but you learn what they want you to learn. They still are living in their their persona. Their publicist is telling them here's who you knew need to be. I just don't see that. Again, like, I may be the odd person out here. I just don't see the outreach here, to be blunt. Yeah. OK, That's fair. Like to each their own. And I'm sure you're not the only one that feels that way. Yeah. All right. Well, let's keep digging in. Go ahead, Jonathan. All right, so the last thing that I just wanted to mention is that this in and of itself, this first little clip, is the curiosity gap. The listeners not just asking what is AI doing in Hollywood now? They're asking, is this a gimmick or is this the future? Is this where we're going with things? Or is this just a passing phase?

25:44 And that's why the Daily is so good at what it does. It's not just dumping information, it's giving you context and it makes it. It makes you care by giving a specific example that makes the issue actually impossible to ignore. So let's set up clip 2, which clip one introduces Tilly Norwood, the I generated actress that you know Ralph does not care about. But clip 2 brings us back to real people, and this clip reminds us that Hollywood is not just celebrities, red carpet, studio heads and Oscar speeches. There's a lot more people that are working in Hollywood that are doing normal jobs. So here we go. So, you know, one thing that is true about Hollywood that a lot of people don't think about is that the vast majority of people who work in Hollywood are, you know, middle class or below. They're just making a kind of a normal living working in parts of the industry that, you know, they're doing the visual effects that you see, they're background actors. They're doing commercials.

26:44 They're, you know, that's how they're making a living. That's how they're getting their union cards so they can have healthcare. What happens with something like AI is that, you know, the studio executives see it and see that this is a way to cut some of that labor out and save money. But for the people who perform that labor, the jobs go away. And that also means that the funnel into the industry goes away. So there's any number of people who you have heard of who came up through the industry through those routes. But, you know, now those routes get cut off. You're saying Leonardo DiCaprio was once a background actor? Well, I don't know if Leo was, but I read recently that, you know, half of the Screen Actors Guild members have done background work in their, you know, in their career. So those kinds of jobs start to go away, and that means that there's fewer and fewer ways for people to come into the industry, which means that you just have fewer and fewer interesting voices getting involved in the industry. I thought I cut that one a little bit shorter, but AI feels abstract in general.

27:48 Like when is people talking about a shiny tool or the scary robot future, it's abstract. But what this section, what this clip does is it makes it real. This is what happens when these jobs go away. There's less interesting people in Hollywood, and I think to kind of bring it back to what Ralph was saying early on, it means that we're just going to have the average of what's out there. If we allow AI to take over, there will be no new new ideas. There will be no unique versions of things because humans are the ones that think about things a little bit differently. AI is giving you an average pretty much of what's out there. It's an interesting concept to look at because if there's fewer people, what are we going to, what are we going to do with that? I'm going to quickly stop here because I wanted to mention the other thing that's really interesting about this. The show is the host is just a guy and he has experts that are there that he's talking to and bouncing questions off of. And it makes it much more interactive. So the 26 minutes goes by fast because it's, it's a real conversation.

28:54 It's not just a, you know, here's what I'm doing, here's what's happening, and it kind of the timeline of it. It's a real conversation, so. By the way, we've got we've got in the chat here, John. John says that he's going to have to come back and listen to the replay of this episode because now he can't stop playing with the Gemini Music generator. He said it's fun to play with it. It kind of distracted me this morning preparing for today's show. I get it, John, and I promise it'll still be there after this show. So you don't have to leave to go play with it, I promise. But that's up to you. Go for it. OK? And Ralph, I think you had something. Yeah. Cry me a river. I'm so sad about this. Oh, how terrible.

29:35 I bet all those people who drove horse drawn carriages were so upset when cars came out too, weren't they? I mean, give me a break. Technology changes. Listen, I am not a huge fan of AI taking over. Don't miss, don't misread what I'm saying. But we have to learn to adapt people, the people who were raising horses, the people are driving horse drawn carriages. Guess what? They were displaced as well. You have to adapt. If the goal of Hollywood is to provide entertainment, then it's no different than CGI. It's no different than the other things that we see every day. Cry me a river. Give me a break, Ralph. I don't think you're so they just, they actually talked about that, that it's very different than CGI in the fact that CGI is a tool that they're using to enhance the experience, whereas AI is creating the entire experience.

30:24 And you all know, I love AI, but I feel like you're you're way on the other side of the fence without considering some of these nuances here, especially, again, that I think part of the appeal to Hollywood is that we feel like we know who these actors and actresses are and we can't, if we know that they're AI generated, we're never going to really believe the fake experiences that they're going to share with us. They can't. Somebody said in the chat here that we can't watch them on a red carpet, right? Not really In real life, we can't, we can't interact with them as real humans. And I think that's the fear.

31:05 And by the way, the other fear is the fact that yes, lots of jobs get taken away and yes, people are going to have to adapt, but they don't have to like it, right? That's fair. No, And I don't disagree with that. But you can also make the argument that AI is enhancing the experience. Well, sure, I think it's in many ways it is enhancing the experience 100%. I can't can't deny that. But that's I think why this particular issue here of creating actual actors is, is the fear is because it really, it does more than enhance. It's it's now taking it over completely. So it's very different. I think, I don't know. I need to respond to the comments. This is tea in my cup.

31:49 This is not a alcoholic drink. And John, yes, in very in, in a lot of ways, AI is taking over for accountants, but it just, it is what it is. So we have to learn to pivot. So you're going to so you feel confident that you're going to be able to pivot comfortably if AI really starts taking over all accountants? Yes, absolutely. Because the thing about AI, it's only as good as those who program it and those who are programming it aren't as good as I am, to be blunt. OK, fair. That's the argument for Hollywood as well. Yeah, yeah. And that's a fair argument. And I love that argument, Jonathan, and I will. I love that argument. That is a great point.

32:31 OK, cool. All right. So, Jonathan, keep it going. Sure BC of your. Hand up. Wait, hold on. Janae wants to chime in. Janae. OK, y'all sleeping on the bus, so my bad guys go ahead. So I love this. I love this topic and I love what's happening with technology and I like both sides of the argument, right Yes, it's taking jobs away yes, technology's gonna do that. And the beautiful part is, I don't know if y'all know this, but just recently Ben Affleck created a software company that replaces the backgrounds of your actors. Meaning you can, you still need to or shoot your entire movie, but it's an AI that can system that can replace entire environments of where your actors are acting. So if you have airplane, airplane scene, if you have a scene and this is completely done with AI. So what's that?

33:29 Doing AI actors is cool, but what's he's promoting is that you're still have control over the actual production of what you're filming. The Dow, you can set your actors into any scene. And what I see happening is because the technology and access to cameras and lighting that we have now, I think that's going to enable these background actors to create their own movies, to create their own films. And that's where people should start looking into, hey, I already have this experience and knowledge to do all of these things. How can I shoot my own film? Because what Hollywood's trying to do is they're trying to take over the entire narrative so they can tell the story just like they want to.

34:13 And that's what's going to happen. Corporations have been doing this for years, right? So that's what's scary is corporations are getting even more control into what you get to watch on TV. So that I think that's a bigger problem than the one that we're trying to focus on. Thanks speaking. Thank you, Janae. I appreciate that. And you know, I told Jonathan before this show started today that I have no problem going into the actual meat of this show. Normally obsession worthy podcast, we try to just break down the episode itself and why it's so popular. But I I had a feeling we were going to want to have some conversations around the actual topic. It's itself and I have no problem with that. So we will try to do this delicate dance of both talking about the episode and talking about how and why it's so obsession worthy.

35:04 We have John that's joined us on stage as well. And I know John has been arguing with Ralph in the chat a little bit about Ralph's opinion on this whole thing. So John, go for it. I wouldn't say arguing, I'm just saying debate. And so we just kind of went through the same thing about 10 years ago with assistance and podcast editing when people overseas started doing it for 1/4 of the price. So as a podcast editor, I was doing editing. And then the first thing that people would say was how much does it cost to edit a podcast? And I'm just going to say $50, all right? And they go, well, I can get it done in the Philippines for 8:00. And I'm like, by all means, go get it done for 8:00. Will they do the same thing?

35:51 I don't know. But you know, I had to go and compete with that, too. So it it's kind of the same thing now, except now they're taking the jobs away from the overseas assistance. Kind of sort of. Yeah. Yeah, Exactly. It's a good comparison. I've often thought about that comparison myself. John, I'm with you there. Interesting to think about. Let's see here. Does anyone else want to chime in before we. Yes, Dr. Go ahead. Good morning. Good morning. So one of the things that is my concern about AI is that humor is largely based on sarcasm, and AI does not get sarcasm at all. So and humor's.

36:38 Big part of my life every single solitary day. And who knows, it might be just around the corner the way that it is advancing. Who the hell knows? But for now, it lacks humor, it lacks sarcasm, and therefore it will never replace, you know, anything that we see. Yeah, this could be a way that people adapt, right? Because as Ralph was saying earlier, so this might give comedians the job of programming and working with AI to be funnier, to understand sarcasm or even just to write it in for AI. You know, having an actual human comedian that could help. You know, I used to do voice overs a long time ago and when AI was just coming on, there was a big surge in the voice over community that people saying don't do it. They're going to try and get you to, you know, get samples of your voice.

37:37 Don't do it before you apply for that job. That sounds so great. Be careful because it could be that they're trying to sample your voice. So don't do it. And I'm hoping that Comedians Comics will heed the same call. Don't do it. OK, there you go. Don't do it. Don't do it. Just don't do it. How's that? Yeah, I was just going to say. I was just going to say. Sounds like a. Nike thing. Yes, All right, John, keep it going. Oh, actually, let's go to John 1st and then we'll go back to Jonathan. Go ahead, John. So it's funny you say that they are because I sometimes with a client when I'm editing, if they make a mistake and I know they made a mistake and I'm like, now I got to get a hold of them and they've got to re say the line over again or whatever. I'll take their voice, go to 11 labs, throw it in there and then type out what they were supposed to say and then do that. But I always say, hey, listen, I did this, this isn't your voice, this is AI.

38:43 And I put it here, is this OK or do you want to re record it? And every time they go, that's fantastic. Also scary because it does, it takes them right out of it. So it is kind of funny they do that. And Mark and I have done this with one of the shows that I work on, Mark's show for his production company. And I will tell you. That when we did it was a case of changing the words from. Third season to 4th season and we didn't want to bring her on just to do a whole intro just for that one for. That one word. Yeah, and he took it to 11 labs and I got to say, it actually turned out better than had the real person done it.

39:29 Yeah, we did that on, I played it for everybody on the podcasting morning chat, and I'll have to find out what episode that is and I'll put it in the show notes if I can find it so that people can hear how we used it. That's going to be season 4, episode 1. Right, right. All right. Of of dementia discussions podcast, right. Yeah. John the great. I was going to say the great thing about me is that I have a horrible Delco South Jersey, Philly accent and AI can't do that yet. So I'm still good. Yeah. Hilarious all right and Ralph final word and then we're giving it back to Jonathan. I just want to say listen, my production team uses this everyday in descript because I will flub words like a like like a champ and they fix it and you can't even tell because it is the soulful sound of Ralph. So listen, that ship is sailed, my friends. We're already there.

40:20 All right, Thank you, Ralph. Jonathan, let's keep it moving. I. Refuse to do it. All right, so clip one gave us curiosity. It gave us like, what is up with this AI actress? Clip 2 gave us the cost. If this becomes normal, who's getting pushed out? And what keeps people? That's what keeps people listening. It's really important to understand that the information alone is not enough. Human consequences of reason to care is what keeps people listening to your podcast. So we're going to jump into clip 3, which is where the story actually gets even more complicated because AI is not just replacing people, it's changing the work itself. And the question starts to become, if AI enhances a human performance, does the audience deserve to know?

41:04 And. On the fictional side, does the audience have the right to know that AI was used to juice up a performance? Does the viewer have the right to know that Adrian Brody's accent in The Brutalist was enhanced, right? And does he then deserve the the Academy Award, the Academy Award you won best actor for that best actor for most of his own acting speaking this was this yes. You know, this was a big controversy in Hollywood last year during Oscar season, in fact, so much that the Academy then clarified its rules and said using AI in this sense does not exclude a performance. So this clip gives us Gray area, Gray area that I don't necessarily agree with in some senses, but this, it's like this is where the plot thickens.

41:54 Because if AI helped create the final product, where does the human contribution begin and end? Who gets credit for that? So the audience is not just thinking about the technology, they're thinking about what's fair, if they should know this, if there should be transparency, and what counts as a performance. What's interesting about this clip is it's about halfway through the podcast, and instead of flattening out the story and making it simple, it actually complicates the story and provides a whole other layer, which we've talked about in other podcasts. It's more of building that curiosity ladder that keeps people interested in wanting to get them to know what the answer that next question is.

42:35 Yeah, it's basically extending the episode without dragging the episode. You're not just sitting there harping on one topic over and over and over again. You're like you said, Jonathan. You're adding these layers to it so that right when the audience is starting to feel like there might be some closure to the story, you've thrown in this new layer that gets that makes you lean in a little bit more, right? Yeah. So I think that's an awesome technique to that you pointed out there. Thank you, Jonathan. Yeah. And I mean, So what it's doing is it's layering that complexity one question at a time. And that's the way to think about it for your podcast, one question at a time. How can you add the next question so the listener feels like they're moving deeper into understanding, not being buried by all the information you want to provide them? Because the goal is to always make the listener feel smarter. Yeah, and it's not in what they're doing. They're not flattening the story into AI is good or AI is bad, right?

43:38 It's giving the listener another layer to think about, and that makes the episode feel more valuable. Yep. Absolutely. And then clip 4 again, it brings in a whole other layer and it brings it to the business reality because Disney is one of the most protective companies with their intellectual property like in the world, and they made this decision. Do they fight this or do they find a way to participate and get paid and set the guardrails? And while Sora is now defunct, isn't it? Yes. So, yeah, So what Jonathan's referring to here is we're going to hear this clip, and it's basically introducing this idea that a few months ago, Sora, owned by Open AI ChatGPT, basically got married to Disney and came up with this big deal that would allow the use of Disney licensed characters within SUNO. And since then, about a month or so ago, SUNO was basically no more.

44:39 Open AI decided to shut that down. And there has been no word about what that means for that deal with Disney. So, yeah, in some ways this episode's now a little outdated, but it's still, it still raises a lot of questions and eyebrows that need to be addressed at some point. So sorry about that. Johnson just wanted, it's getting confusing. There's Sora, there's Suno there. All these different names is getting a little convoluted in my name. Well, that's our fault because we introduced Suno at the top of this, at the top of the show. So yeah. But Sora is the now defunct open AI video generation tool. OK. You can hit that 4th clip. Was the right direction?

45:21 Well, what does it tell you that Disney, being as protective of its intellectual property, realized that this was the right direction? It tells you that they feel like they have no choice. You know, if you go on video, which is Google's AI video generator, you can create a clip using a Disney character. I did it yesterday. I typed in Buzz Lightyear riding a bicycle. Few seconds later, there's a clip of Buzz Lightyear riding a bicycle. So it's not like this isn't happening without a deal in place. So they might as well be compensated for it. They might as well be compensated for it. And, you know, no company is more concerned with how to keep up with what kids want. The children of the future, how do we entertain them? And they really have conceded that young people like to remix things, want to be involved with their entertainment in a different way.

46:14 They don't just want to sit there and watch what Hollywood has created. So, you know, they're going to do it anyway. We might as well be involved and get paid for it and try to do it with some what they call guardrails. I think no sex, no drugs. You can't have, you know, Cinderella. You know, one of the things that it's not something that I know is part of your notes, Jonathan, that I just wanted to share. This just reminded me and I don't even know if it happened in this clip, but it reminded me that one of the things I noticed maybe as a podcaster, as a producer, I noticed and appreciated the way that they sometimes they being the daily edited down the responses of their guests.

46:56 Just because the guest has a lot to say doesn't mean that it's all valuable and doesn't need to always be shared in its entirety. And I definitely noticed moments that it felt like they were probably going to say more, but it was cut off and then inserted in the next question. But and that so I wanted to make sure to point that out because I think sometimes some of us feel like, well, the guest gave us this big long answer, we got to leave it in there. And that is just not the case. Just leave what's valuable in there and you can get get rid of all the fluff. Yes, Ralph, go ahead. And I wonder if they used AI to do that, because I know in the script I can drop my show into the script and say cut out the fluff, basically.

47:40 And that's an AI tool doing that. So that's a whole nother level, isn't it? Yeah. And they were very and they made it very clear that Hollywood doesn't have a problem with that. They don't have a problem with tools that are assisting the production process. They have a problem with tools that are just completely replacing the entire process at the entire Hollywood brand. I think is really what they're more concerned about. But they, it sounds, it sounded like from the interview, using it to enhance, using it to speed up the production process. As far as AI is concerned, they had no problem with that. Yeah. And something else to keep in mind, if we're talking about obsession Worthy podcast, you need to serve your audience. So what you're cutting out needs to be the stuff that doesn't serve your audience, whether it's good or not good. Like I had an entire podcast.

48:31 It was 50 minutes long. I published 12 minutes of it because there were 12 minutes that served my audience. It was a great conversation. I appreciated the guest, but there's 12 minutes to serve my audience and that's what I put out. And you know, we got to keep that in mind when we're looking at something making it obsession worthy. So back to clip 4. Unless there's I think Dr. has their hand up. I just wanted to say since we're on the topic of cutting out stuff that your guests say usually. 99% of the time when a guest says, hey, that's a great question, I will cut that out. Because it is. 100% always. They're trying to think of a good answer. Which is.

49:14 Fine, but I mean, that's just such a catch phrase that you need to cut that out. Agreed. Yeah, so. And that was a good answer that I just did. Thanks. That was a good Yeah. So what clip four kind of introduces is this tension around who controls what, who owns the characters, who gets to remix them, who gets paid, who sets the rules and who decides on what's allowed. And Disney wanted to be a part of this. That was their decision. They wanted to be a part of this. And I believe that's kind of a decision that's going to still stand. Even though we lost Sora, That decision is going to stand, and it's going to be one that others follow because they get to be a part of what's happening with the AI, and that matters.

49:58 So I think that's really important, yeah. Good point. Yep, absolutely. All right, Clip 5, after walking us through all these strange examples, the AI actress, the human stakes, what is going to mean for creatives, the messy questions around performance and who gets the Oscar and Disney's decision. We're looking for a payoff because we're always looking for a payoff when we're listening, listening to a podcast. But again, it's not clean like AI is good or AI is bad. Instead, we're kind of looking for a best case scenario here. So here we go, Clip 5. But one of the positive ways that companies spin this is that the studios that if AI reduces costs, makes it easier, cheaper for us to make these movies, we can justify taking bolder creative risks if it's not so expensive. It's a little rich to hear studio executives talk like that, right?

50:52 Like, like, OK, I believe you. But there is something in it that if the cost of a movie goes down, they are more willing to let it be a little more unusual. Not all the time, but sometimes, right? And so that is a possibility here if we're looking for rays of sunlight, right? If you cast Tilly Norwood enough, then you will get sinners. If that happens, I will be the happiest person in the world. But it is hard for me to believe that's where we're going. Yeah. So this, I mean, we could have just done something like, OK, AI is coming for Hollywood jobs. It's the end.

51:32 That could have been the way they ended the episode, or AI is going to unlock unlimited creativity. But where they win is it lands in a much more honest place. It doesn't give you a clean like conclusion that means nothing. It tells you, hey, this could be a positive version, but I don't know the people promising it. I don't know if we believe them. And that makes the entire series feel trustworthy because it's not forcing something. It's giving you what's really happening. And it doesn't always have to give you a tidy answer. You don't always have to create a tidy answer when you, you know, just let people know these are things that are happening. Give it a clear people, a clear way to think. The payoff isn't certainty.

52:17 The payoff is clarity. And that's what we get in this podcast. Yeah, a great breakdown, Jonathan. Thank you. And The Daily is an obsession worthy podcast, in my opinion, because listeners know what they're coming for, right? They're coming for that clarity, like you said at the beginning. That's the biggest lesson for us, I think as podcasters is when your show has a clear promise, you do and you deliver that promise again and again, people have a reason to come back and it makes them more likely to share your show with others, right? So that's such a, that's my big take away really is the, is the clarity aspect. It's taking these subjects that we hear so often talked about like AI infiltrating certain industries and how that's affecting those industries. That can be a heavy topic to stomach and having it broken down in a more conversational and clear, concise way. I think that's what makes this one sing so well. Yeah, I agree.

53:21 I have a couple quick takeaways, but I know if there's questions and stuff I will just post them on the Facebook group. Yeah, I don't think anybody has any questions, but yeah, please share any of yours. All right, so quick takeaways, don't open with a broad topic. Start with something specific and impossible to ignore. Whatever your topic is, find specificity in that because when you're talking it, when you're talking about a trend, when you're really specific about who that impacts, that's going to land much better. Also, let your audience feel the tension long enough that they're going to want it resolved. Like don't just hey, here's what's happening and you know it's bad and here's the resolution because they're not going to latch on to that.

54:01 If you let them actually feel the tension, feel the emotion, feel what people are going through, then that's something they're going to latch on to. And then sometimes your best episodes don't need a quick yes or no solution. Provide the possibilities and that could be where the real impact is of your of your episode. And make it human. Please make it human. Even if it's about AI, make it human. Thank you, Jonathan. You know, and that last quote just really stuck with me because it may be in because I was thinking about Ralph and his opposite take. And Ralph, I appreciate that you had an opposite take, but and it feels almost not quite conflicting, but you have been somebody on this show specifically that advocates the human side and you've pushed that.

54:49 Don't let AI do the content for you. Put your own voice into it because that's what people want. They want the human side. And so I feel like that somewhat contradicts this. Who cares? AI is going to take over and we, you know, we just have to adapt. But I've heard you say that it's really important that we keep the human side. So I'm curious what your thoughts are. Let me address that because I still live in that same camp. My opinion is when it comes to entertainment, when it comes to fantasy, when it comes to Hollywood, I think that ship has sailed. But I think there still is a place for people that want to connect with people one-on-one as a human being.

55:31 And I think that's the beauty of podcasting. The beauty of podcasting is we come to speak to someone that we have a relationship with or that we want to build a relationship with. AI is never going to take that over. Unfortunately, when it comes to entertainment, I think that ship has sailed. That's where I see the difference, Mark. I'm not saying to just throw our hands up. Let's give up about AI because I think there's still a place for innovators even in Hollywood. The thing about AI is mediocre at best. So if we're going to accept mediocre, then we're going to accept mediocre. I think it all comes down to the audience. What does the audience accet? Here's a great analogy of that. 20 years ago when Hotosho came out, guess what?

56:12 Every picture in the world was, quote, doctored U Nobody flipped out about that because that was just accepted. Well, AI is becoming accepted in Hollywood. I'm not saying it that there aren't. There aren't problems with it, but I still think there's a place for authenticity. So yeah, Mark, you're right, it's a little bit of a conflict, but I think it depends on the audience and I think it depends on what you're trying to accomplish. Yeah. And I think it's also important though, to point out that I think that a lot of podcasters that aren't doing entertainment style shows forget that there is still an entertainment element to podcasting, right? Like we, we think that if we are more of a how to style show, right, or a business style show, it doesn't need to be entertaining.

56:56 We just got to give value. And there are probably arguments for some audiences, that's all they want. But I think that the more we can be entertaining, the more we're going to continue to build an audience. It's harder to build an audience without being somewhat entertaining for them. I agree with you 100%. I think that is the secret to it. If you just want to come and spit out information, go to ChatGPT and let it spit out an LLM model for you. But if you want to come for a relationship, you want to come for entertainment, you want to come with a connection. That's the beauty of podcasting. Yeah, absolutely. Cool. All right. Well, Jonathan, thank you for another great episode of Obsession Worthy Podcasts. We'll be back with that again in two weeks because next Monday, May the Fourth, will be our Money Monday series with Ralph Estep.

57:47 And then, yeah, we'll pick it back up the following Monday. So come join us then and remember that we are here all week long, Monday through Friday, 7:00 AM Eastern. The last time I'll be saying that for the remainder of this week anyway. It'll be the last time I'm saying 7:00 AM Eastern Time. Come join us at Podcasting Morning chat.com/join us to find all the ways that you can be a part of this show live or after the fact as a podcast. So until tomorrow, make it a great day everybody. Take care.