376 - Audio-Only Podcasting: The Antidote to Video?

0:05 Good morning podcasting Morning chat. Today is Thursday, September 25th, 2025 and today long time podcaster Rachel Corbett says podcasting wouldn't exist if it started with video. And today's chat explores where we agree, where we don't, and of course, why it matters. So if you're listening live on Clubhouse, hit the share button, bottom left hand side of the screen and share it However Clubhouse lets you. And if you're catching us live on YouTube or podcast, please share this episode with a fellow podcaster. And now give me about 30 seconds and we'll get things rolling. Thanks for being here.

1:20 Good morning again, podcasting. Morning, Ted. Thanks so much for being here. I am your host Mark Ronik. And on stage with me currently we have producer Ashley Feller, Dr. Faye, Sid Meadows, Alex Baelish and Nick Nolback. And I'm expecting Jonathan Howard as well because just a little tease, We have a clip from a show that we really want to break down and we shared it with the team last night so people could digest it a little bit. And Jonathan said he was quite opinionated about this clip. So I am very curious to hear his thoughts. So hopefully he will be joining us momentarily. And yes, the countdown continues.

2:01 Empowered Podcasting 2 is happening tomorrow, and technically for me it's today because I am leaving Asheville, NC and heading over to Charlotte this afternoon. And in typical Mark ADHD form, I have not packed a single thing yet. Not a thing. I don't have a as a matter of fact to my right across the way, my home studio's in my basement and across the way from me, we have like a bedroom area set up for guests. And this is also where again across the way, there's also laundry machines there. And all of my laundry currently is just all over the guest bed right now in just a big pile.

2:53 I should take a picture and I'll share it with with you. Maybe I'll put it in the Empowered Podcasting Facebook group to share And there's Jonathan Awesome. And by the way, awesome to see James Cridlin as our first guest in the audience today. James Cridlin from of course, Pod news, a proud partner of Empowered Podcasting as well. James has been such a great support throughout our journey this year, promoting the event, allowing us to promote it over there on his website. And you're putting it in that events section that we talk about every Wednesday. It's just a been a pleasure working with James and I'm really proud to be working with James.

3:34 And hello to Renee, who's joined us as well in the chat. Looks like we're having one of those mornings where people slowly file in and that's OK. Yep, there's Austin. OK, cool. So listen, normally, well, not normally. What I said I was going to do this week was start the show with an icebreaker question related to going to conferences. I've decided I'm going to hold off on that and we'll do that tomorrow since we're going to be live from Charlotte from the event tomorrow, we'll talk more about conferences and strategies when you're going to these conferences. We'll do some of that tomorrow when I've got some of you sitting next to me live at the Hilton. I'm sorry, the Hyatt Centric just said Hilton. I don't know why.

4:21 OK, so with that, let's start with a different icebreaker. And this really kind of helps set up today's question. OK, here it is. If you had to choose forever only podcasts were only YouTube, which would you pick? And you can have different answers clearly, which would you pick as both a creator and as a consumer? Only if you only have podcasts or YouTube to choose from. And let's put let's define podcasts as audio only for this discussion. And I see people want to chime in. Let's check in with Dr. Ladies first. Good morning to you, Dr. What say you? If you had to choose forever only podcasts or only YouTube, which would you pick as a creator and as a consumer? Go for it.

5:08 So I am an audio first girl. I think I would go with podcasts. I already have televisions, so that would fill my need for something that I can see, but I really think that I would go for the audio first. Who else had their chili pepper up? Was it Nick? No, I did. I think I enjoy the best of both worlds when it comes to YouTube. I used to love listening to the radio, go to sleep or whatever. And so in terms of content, I like audio slash video because you can see it or listen to it. But in terms of making content, audio is easier. And that's why I would say audio. But I like the interaction with guests so that always helps. Alex kind of one vote as a creator, one vote for the other one as a consumer makes sense.

6:00 And let's see, Nick, I think wants to check in. Go ahead, Nick. I would choose video polls as a consumer and as a creator. From the consumer standpoint, I'm a very much a visual learner and a lot of the content that I consume is to learn, and it's really hard to learn how to use different programs through audio. I definitely do video on the consumer side, on the video side or on the. Creator. Side I don't know, I feel like. There's you have the potential like Alex is saying, where you can listen to video without actually watching it, which. I think caters to the people who prefer audio, but having video is just like another element that can drive more people to your content.

6:44 It opens itself up to more monetization options. It just. It gives your. Content more reach Depending on what the audiences prefer. Content styles. They will watch the video, they can watch it, but if it is a podcast so to speak, they can still listen to you without actually watching it. A. Lot of the platforms. Allow. That to happen. Yeah. Thank you, Nick. And I think Renee is agreeing with you. She's choosing YouTube and for two reasons. In the chat here, she's saying second biggest search engine. That's YouTube. Yeah, I get that. And she's also saying, similar to what you were saying, Nick, that as a consumer, she likes to see things when needed.

7:26 And yeah, you made a great point there. I mean, I know a lot of us use YouTube as YouTube University. So when we're going there to maybe learn how to fix that thing we're doing in Canva, for example, right? Or what's that audio editing trick that we can do in Adobe, right? I'm just trying to come up with stuff off the top of my head. And we we're likely going to go look at YouTube. It's like you said, it's going to be a lot harder to go on a podcast and get a step by step some cases that might work, but I think having the visual as well is really helpful. Anyone else want to chime in before we play today's clip? It's funny because when we were talking about learning something, so my, I have a lot of different podcast players on my phone and they all have like you can separate, you can categorize, you know, all your favorite podcasts into one category and another.

8:22 So all of my podcasts on podcasting I have labeled the classroom. It's all audio. All my education practically has been through audio first podcasts. OK, so there you go. And like I said, I think that some people that that may work well for them and I think visual learners would probably lean toward YouTube, but I get that. That's cool. Dr. Thank you. And Sid wanted to chime in. Go ahead, Sid. Good morning, everybody. I'm going to agree with Ashley. This is a tough question to answer. As a consumer, I would want podcast audio only. There's something about putting it in my back pocket, walking around, listening to stories, learning new things, you know, hearing people talk.

9:08 I'm. I'm an audio first guy. As a consumer, I rarely open YouTube, being like rarely open each. I am trying to get into a habit of opening it at least once a week to search for things just because. Trying to, you know, learn how to use it. I guess a little bit as a consumer. I have to stop you, Sid. It's, it's so funny to me to hear that because most people are trying to break the habit of using it too much. And Sid's creating trying to create a habit of actually using YouTube. I just like never open it. I don't know, it's something about watching a video. I feel like I have to sit down and focus to watch a video where if I'm listening, like I could not watch YouTube videos while I'm on my morning walk, but I can listen to two podcasts while I'm on my morning walk and consume content and learn things and you know, feel accomplished. I can't do that with YouTube.

9:54 I might walk into a mailbox or a car or something, Right? But as a creator, I understate go go ahead, you are. It's interesting that you said what you just said because the clip that he's going to play talks about how you feel dividing your time between YouTube and podcasts, audio first podcast and the feeling that you get if you sit. I don't want to give up the clip, but you you'll hear it we'll. Touch on this. Yeah. Well as a creator I understand the power of video, especially short form video and I love creating videos, it comes very natural to me. I don't really struggle with creating videos so as a creator I would probably lean into creating more video then audio.

10:42 If I had to choose I probably would choose. I'm going to second guess myself but because I love creating podcasts though, I mean I just love talking to people and sharing their stories. So I mean it'll be a really hard one for me to choose. But as a creator, I understand the power of videos, so I might lean a little bit towards creating video first. There you go. OK, interesting variety being shared here this morning. And all right, I, I'd like to move forward now and actually play this clip. And this is a clip. Dr. found this and she sent it to me yesterday as we were doing show prep for yesterday and was sharing it with me thinking, oh, maybe we can talk about this. And I was like, yeah, let's talk about it tomorrow. And this, it comes from Rode, the manufacturer of all the different Rd. products, right?

11:33 The microphones, the road caster, etcetera. They've started a video podcast and this is from their first episode, 1 of several guests. This is actually the clip. Her name is Rachel Corbett and she is an Australian podcaster. And this is an Australian podcast. She's been a radio and television presenter, media professional. She's been at it for 20 years across radio, podcasting and TV. Also, I think print media as well, her radio career involved roles at major Australian networks. And I, we have Matt Bliss here, our Australian. So Matt, you can tell me, you can chime in at any point if I've gotten anything wrong so far. And let me just say good morning to you, Sir. Good.

12:19 Morning everybody. I put in the chat before this episode started that I should come along just in case context is needed. But there's going to be names that are famous mentioned and companies that are popular in Australia that are mentioned that are going to have zero impact on any of you just because of the context. So yeah, I'm expecting to fill in the gaps if it's needed. Obviously we won't. But we'll see. We'd also love to have your opinions as well, Matt. So let's get that hat on and I will play this clip and I think it's only about a minute and then we'll talk about it. I have this broken down, by the way, because there are several statements in here that she makes that I think will a lot of us will want to chime in on. And Jonathan Howard, I'm looking at you because you were pretty vocal in our private chat last night when we shared this clip with you.

13:06 So let's play it, and then let's talk about it on the other side. Podcasting would never have become what it's become if it was video, because the whole shift to podcasting, the passion for it, the interest was that it was an antidote to video. It has the same feeling as reading a book. If I said to you, I spent my whole Sunday afternoon listening to podcasts, I would feel like that was a break. If I said to you I spent my whole Sunday afternoon watching YouTube, I would feel slightly guilty about that. That screen time has been what the podcast was supposed to be an escape from, and now we're pushing it so far into it becoming screens again entirely that it's for me this like it's a struggle within me because I'm really keen to lean into the benefits of discoverability and I understand the power of it, but I'm also conscious that the whole reason it became what it was is because it wasn't video. So lots to break down there.

14:08 I'm guessing that some of you are going to agree strongly with some of the statements and disagree strongly with some of the other statements. And Matt, I just see, I, I just browsed it. I didn't read it word for word. Do you want to share what you're sharing in the chat out loud so our audience can hear the same? Sure. I mean, I say devil's advocate agent of chaos in discussions like this 'cause I figure everyone needs someone to very politely tell them. What if what you say isn't true? But the thing that I always come to caution with when it gets close to defining what podcasting is, I think we need to make sure that we kind of move out of our armchairs and wait around in the broader context of things.

14:54 And the biggest one for me that I want to, would want to flag before we get into this discussion is that we have to remember that Road has just released and upgraded a few times a platform that provides an easy solution for people to create a video podcast. And within the 1st 2 lines of the intro of this very diary, the CEO looking set, they mentioned that Road is a company that creates products to enable podcasters to create video much more strongly. So yes, Ashley has said it is, is it a marketing campaign? I don't think it is. I think it's they've waited this long to create a podcast specifically for that reason, but the conversation will constantly be threading through whether video is a thing that's important or not and sharing opinions about whether video is important to podcasting or not.

15:46 Understanding that there is someone at a company who has edited this with an incentive for people to purchase a product that enables them to do video very easily. Those are the 2 main things I would want to start the conversation with. But I don't want to be a Debbie Downer, right? Yeah, I think it's important. It's a yeah, it's a nice disclaimer to throw out there. I, I agree with you. I don't look at it as a marketing campaign, but at the same time, let's be real, a lot of podcasts out there are designed because of a marketing efforts of a business or an entrepreneur etcetera, right. So of course that would be the case. One last thing, someone who was a guest that we didn't hear from just there, Miff Warhurst, She is a popular radio presenter and she pushes hard for audio as an audio only medium in the broader context of this conversation. So there is equal representation for whatever comes up as a subject.

16:42 I think they've generationally spread it out as well. So you've got people who are old school radio as well as went to sleep in their bedrooms in high school watching YouTube. Kind of thing. So anyway, sorry I'm pulling us too far away. Get us started. Thank you, Matt. Let's dig into this. So one of the first things that I know caught my attention and I think was part of a conversation that I had with Dr. yesterday. When we first played the clip or listened to the clip with each other, the quote was podcasting would never have become what it's become if it was video because the whole shift to podcasting, the passion for it, the interest was that it was an antidote to video. I'll go here first.

17:28 Do you agree that podcasting grew because it was a break from video? And if so, why? Go ahead, Ashley I. Think I agree with that. I think when I think about the the history of podcasting, I think that it video wasn't always as accessible and now that it is, that's part of the reason. Yeah, I'm with you there. I mean, that really struck me. I guess, you know, first I'll say maybe even though I know this, this person, Rachel has been around for a while, maybe just the introduction of podcasting to her wasn't 20 years ago. Maybe it was 10 years ago. I don't. I'm just making up a number because 20 years ago, yes, there were options for video in podcasting. And if you were around 20 years ago, you know, Internet was not nearly as fast as it is today and it couldn't handle video the way it can handle it now in multiple ways, right? Live streaming was not as good quality and it was more sparse. I don't know right, like I'm trying to think of the right word.

18:35 People weren't using it yet as much on the Internet. Yes, of course YouTube was around, but not 20, not 20 years ago, I don't think, but close. And people podcasting was an audio thing. I mean, that's what the whole RSS feed is all about. And funny that James Cridlin is here because I know we talked about RSS and podcasting 2 point OA little while back when he joined us. But yeah, I found that is to be a very interesting statement. Even having something like Zoom didn't really exist. The closest thing we had back then that I remember using with my Co host was Skype and that was an audio streaming communication tool. Yeah, it that that one kind of struck me a little bit. I just want to make sure I didn't miss anybody. Did anyone want to say something? Go ahead, Alex.

19:24 That has to be the most ignorant statement about podcasting I've ever heard. Without a doubt. It is so pretentious and uninformed it doesn't make any sense. The reason why video is so not important but so forward is exactly what you said. It's the technology and people are nosy and the fact that the world has become a lot smaller. You look at something like. The War of the Worlds. To Tiananmen Square to what we are dealing with now with, with late night TV. The world's become smaller because of technology and there's so many people pushing the limits because of it.

20:11 I mean, what are we listening? We're on a we're on a phone, most of us that has more circuits than the than the Apollo program had. You can do so much with this technology. Everybody's just pushing the limit. It was going to happen either. Way. Thank you, Alex, and I do want to say, Rachel, I think in that clip does say, like I said, when after we played it, I think there are some things that she said that was that were spot on. This one. I'm more in your camp. I just don't agree that that's how and why podcasting started. And Matt, did you want to share also this context that you shared in the chat? Just to say that her perspective for me when she said anything about audio trumping video in any context and especially the clip shared there, the fact that she heads the podcast division of a radio based company and James May come in being the resident Australian essentially at this point.

21:10 Nova being a radio company for a long time. I still remember Nova being one of the early FM radio stations that was breaking through in Australia in the early 2000s. I think with that kind of pedigree, you can imagine with a radio background someone saying that podcasts came about as a fight for video. But I think the context there may not be video podcasting, it might be fighting television, and it's an opinion that they run all the way to the end zone and into the car park just to bring to the conversation their background. So with a strong radio background, I think that's probably a bit of context that might temper the strength with which she says something like that. But yeah, spot on so far that the context changes frequently and you just have to keep updating your own context and your own views based on how the world changes. Thank you, Matt.

22:02 And that does kind of put it in a little more perspective. And it's still, if you are in this podcasting industry, I think you got to, pardon me, you got to feel you got to be a little more informed when you're going to make a bold statement. Like podcasting would never have become what it's become if it was video. Nick, I think you wanted to say something. Go ahead. I somewhat agree with what she's saying because if someone didn't come and kind of break audio away from video and make it its own thing, we wouldn't have podcasts. We just have a video. And I think the fact that it kind of became its own category lended itself to growth.

22:45 Like in a way, it almost got the the treatment where at least when I got into podcast, he was like, oh, you're so funny. You go start a podcast. Or like people just joke about starting a podcast as if, yeah, right, Like I'm not going to do that. And then as it got more serious, people started them on the bandwagon. But in a way, had they not started doing audio only, I don't even think we'd be having a discussion because it's there would be the allure to have a quote UN quote podcast. And it became glorified throughout the years after it has been involving. Yeah. But as as a whole, I don't agree with the statement, but I I do see some validity in what she said.

23:31 OK, that's fair. I appreciate that and let's keep it moving. Go to Chris. Chris joined us on stage during this part of the discussion. So let's see what he wants to say. Chris Faglio, good morning to you. Looking forward to seeing you. Are you coming in today or tomorrow? I am coming in today. Awesome jersey at my flight leaves at 2:15. Awesome, can't wait to see ya. Yeah, me too, man. It's, it's been a, it's been over a year since. I yeah, exactly. Very excited for this. So I listened to the clip. I agree with Nick there. There's some points there. I think everybody in this room is is pretty much of the age or at least remembers MTV right before MTV, bands didn't really do music videos.

24:12 They did some promo stuff and fun things and if they're on a live show or whatever and they would clip videos from that or they would make quote UN quote little music films, you know, on on a song. But there was really no outlet for that because no one cared at that time. Then MTV comes along and they're like, hey, music videos. And now all of a sudden, all the bands that had anything like that that does why MTV was full of that stuff and that's all they played for a while because really no one was making music videos. And that's why you only saw like the same, you know, 60 to 80 like music videos on MTV in the early days. And but it pushed then that it changed the entire music industry to say, well, we got to make music videos. It's like a music video is now a vehicle promotion for the record for the single.

24:59 And there's an outlet for that. And very much the evolution of podcasting to me is exactly it. I mean, I, you know, some of you guys know me. I'm I've been a video guy my whole life. I mean, that's, you know, I grew up a filmmaker. I went to film school. I started a video conferencing and I've always been video, you know, but I, I also started off on college radio. And so to me, for me, it was very natural to do quote UN quote, a video podcast, which I saw Sid put it in there. Mark and I, you talked you and I talked about this on my podcast a year ago, the word podcasting, you know, just because of the iPod, it became very like democratic way of saying, Hey, anybody can create. If you've got something to say on any side of the spectrum, if you've got entertainment, if you've got a show, whatever it is, you can produce it make up.

25:45 And Apple was more than happy to oblige because they wanted content for their iPod and their iTunes store. And over the years it evolved and then video became much more easily accessible and much more easy to do. The phones and everything. The technology became cheaper and easier to do. And so to me, it just seems like a completely natural progression. And you have to have audio with video to make it work anyway. And so I think that what's great is that video serves a segment of the audience that really loves visual, right? They go on YouTube like I do and they watch stuff and whether they're watching it or putting on in the background, it's still playing or listen. If you like audio, then great, then you could listen to it in your car or wherever you listen to it. So I think it's a great natural progression to have the two and you know, that's just, that's where it's going and it's probably only going to be, it's only going to keep going more and more that way.

26:38 So anyway, that's kind of my, my $0.02 on it. I'm a little jiggly just cuz, you know, of course I am a video guy, but I think that it just makes sense to me that this is where it's all going. And I think to kind of keep looking backwards and being like, well, this broke that or that it's just, it's no, let's all be forward thinking. Let's embrace that technology and let's make it work for our audience, right? How is our audience love to consume what we make, right? Because it should always be audience first, not what other podcasters think. It's what our audience thinks. Unless your audience is other podcasters, right? And that's what you're. But if your audience isn't that, then it's like, what do they like? What, how do they want you to show up? You know, that's the, that should always be the, the, the question to ask first and then make your decision from there. So that's it.

27:22 That's my two cents. Looking forward to seeing everybody. Thank you, Chris. Safe travels and feel free to hang around here in the meantime. Appreciate your take. And I want to go to Jonathan who have been teasing. I know that he's been very opinionated about this clip. So I think that her statement is completely absurd. I do not understand where she's coming from unless it's just nostalgia. If she's just got this nostalgic opinion, a podcast, then OK, But it can't be an informed opinion in my opinion because, well, let's start with the fact that audio existed before video. Audio was always there. It wasn't a pushback against video. It was always there. There was radio stations, there was, you know, it was, that's just part of things that happened. So audio was always there.

28:08 It's not a push against video, and I think it's just the way that things are going. However, there's also going to be things that are going to reach back into audio and be audio only. We've got things like, I'm going to say it because, you know, I'm the big Taylor Swift fan. She's got a freaking video movie coming out for the launch of her album. There's one music video in it and the rest are all just audio, like audio content in this movie that she's pushing into movie theaters. So we've got to look at things. There's there's just how people are consuming it. We've got to meet those needs. I just don't think there's any way to say it's a push against.

28:50 It was a push against video. That's what it made it so strong. I completely agree and I actually wanted to say something also about something Chris was sharing a moment ago. It just sparked a thought listening to everything Chris had to say. And in my opinion, video, when it becomes as easy and affordable as audio, I think that's when the real conversations are going to begin about video taking over the podcasting space. I don't think it will ever really become a video first platform, podcasting specifically, until it's as easy to do, it's as affordable to do as audio. And I don't believe that audio is ever going to go away. I'm not saying that I think there will always be a place in with audio, just like there is when we compare radio and television.

29:46 There will always be that. Yeah, go ahead, Jonathan. Until people are as comfortable showing their face on video as they are sharing their voice on audio. And that's a long way away. I hear you and I agree with you. I think showing up on camera is more intimidating to the average person then showing up on audio. And almost all of the people that I get started with, the clients that I work with hesitate because one of the reasons being they hate the sound of their voice, right. So whether it's you hate how you sound, hate how you look, we judge ourselves a lot, a lot of us do. So I think that there's, you know, there, there is that comparison there and maybe showing up on videos a little stronger of of an intimidation factor. But I think I think they're pretty close in my opinion, from what I've come across.

30:37 All right, there was another statement made that she said, she said it has the same feeling as reading a book podcasting does. If I said to you, I spent my whole Sunday afternoon listening to podcasts, I would feel like that was a break. If I said to you, I've spent my whole Sunday afternoon watching YouTube, I would feel slightly guilty about it. So what do we think? Is podcast listening more nourishing than binge watching video? I mean, yeah, Jonathan, I'll, I'll go back to you. Go ahead. No, I think it comes down to the person. What do they enjoy more? I mean, honestly, yeah. I mean, I like watching YouTube videos.

31:17 I don't feel guilty because it's stuff I picked. I chose to watch it so I don't know. And I think it's, I feel like it's just individual to the person and how they want to spend their time and what they deem to be quality time on an individual basis to sort of how I see it, but. Yeah, thanks Chris. And that actually just made me connect with my own consumption and for some reason I hadn't pieced this together until now. I think that I go whatever it is I podcasting or whatever, I think I'm searching YouTube before I am say, Apple podcast or Spotify. If I want to find a podcast, I think I go to the video first. Just surprises me actually.

32:01 So I guess I'm more attracted to it than I thought. So I'm not going to necessarily feel guilty about it. If I'm all day listening to podcasting, I'm not judging myself as much. If I if I were to have to tell somebody, like she said, if I were to have to say to somebody, yeah, I just spent all day listening to podcasts or even watching podcasts for that matter. But let's just for this argument, listening to podcasts, I wouldn't feel guilty about that. But if I said to them, I'm I was on YouTube all day, it feels like almost the same as me saying like I was scrolling TikTok all day. So. What's the purpose for doing that? Like that's the thing that I didn't understand. Like if I was watching YouTube all day to learn something, then great. I learned that thing that I needed to learn. I watch YouTube all day.

32:45 I listen to podcasts all day to learn something great. That's what I did to learned something that day. Like I don't understand where the Oh my God I feel guilty about this is coming from. If you had a purpose doing it, If I didn't have a purpose to listen to podcasts all day, then I'd feel guilty doing it 'cause I was probably have to do something else or was supposed to be doing something else. Like I don't understand that connection there. It seemed a little. Bizarre. OK, well, Jonathan is delivering just as promised with his strong opinions. I appreciate it, Jonathan. And Sid, I want to come to you. Oh, good. Yeah, he just raised his hand as I was going to say that because I know you are both an avid podcast listener and reader.

33:27 So let's hear from you and then we're going to check in with Nick. Go ahead, Sid. So I heard that part of the clip and I think about it and I think everybody's bringing up some very interesting points. And we talked about this the other day, like have a position, share position to be able to defend your position. And I see that happening this morning, everybody sharing their thoughts and justifying why they believe what they believe. But when I heard her say that in the clip, it actually really resonated with me because I am a active reader. And after I read something, whether it's a business book or a non fiction book or whatever, I mean, I have a sense of accomplishment because it is part of my goal to, you know, my goal is actually to read 30 minutes a day.

34:15 And so, you know, I just have this sense of accomplishment, but I also have the same feeling after I get off here with you guys, the first thing I do is turn on my podcast player and didn't finish listening to 1 I started yesterday or scroll through my what feels like endless following and listen to another one. And I have a sense of accomplishment and completion in doing it. So for me, it does resonate with me. Listening to a podcast feels very similar to reading because I'm going to associate watching YouTube to what you just said, Mark, which is like watching 3 hours worth of TikTok. If I spend more than 3045 minutes on TikTok, I'm like said, what the hell are you doing?

34:57 I could be learning things, right? I could be learning things, could be consuming news, but I probably have the same reaction if I spent 45 minutes randomly scrolling YouTube. If I was intentional and I went to YouTube like I did in the very beginning to your earlier comment, the University of YouTube and typed in how do you start a podcast? I probably spent hours consuming video, but I was very intentional of what I wanted to consume, not just randomly scrolling. So for me it the comment about reading and listening does is a parallel for me, yes. Thank you. I have a question. I have a question, Sid, When you read, you actually read a book or do you listen to it?

35:38 So that depends on the book, Alex, but 90% of the time I'm reading and for you guys that are readers, I actually have to have the book. I want the book. Even if I listen to the book, I buy the book. This is a obsession. I'm going to have a library one day. I think I really like the physical book and I prefer to actually read. And there are some books like Mel Robbins Let Them Theory that I started reading and then I heard somebody say something about the audio book and I switched to the audio book. And I'm really glad I did because the audio book was spectacular. It was like a podcast because the way she was talking to you, the tone of her voice, I mean, it just felt like I was listening to her on a podcast, so. Without all of the commercials that she plays. Yeah, correct.

36:28 Oh my God, 7 minutes for real. I preferred the actual physical book. I'm not a reader like you are, but I do listen to a lot of audio books and I think that has something to be said for your perspective versus someone that just is looking for that, that's used to just getting their content via YouTube or via the Internet or whatever. I, I know there's, there's some kind of correlation. I just think it's kind of neat. So I have a follow up question for you. If the book was being read on YouTube, would you watch it? I would listen to it. I love the radio and and that's the thing, I love audio. I really do think the spoken word is important thing for someone like me. Reading is never is, is always going to be challenging. So for me, what you do is like nails on a chalkboard because I just, I, I can't sit down and read because of my dyslexia. I was just going to say that, Alex. Yeah.

37:22 I mean, yeah, as a as a fellow neurodivergent, yeah, I get it. It can be really challenging to sit down with a book, especially I I don't have dyslexia and I can imagine that being really challenging. Since there is more content on video and people are looking for those quick dopamine hits, that's why the tide is maybe turned. Maybe that's why we have the reactions that we have. Thank you, Alex. Thank you, Sid. Sid give me just a one or the other if you had to cause earlier we did the if you had to choose YouTube or audio podcasting, I want to know only books or only podcasts. That is an unfair question. And on the protection of my Fifth Amendment rights, I'm going to decline to answer that.

38:09 That's a really hard question, Mark. That's actually an unfair question, 'cause we're talking about video and I'm talking about books. Well, we are talking about books 'cause she said it. It's a really unfair question. So I would choose reading. I would choose reading because you can just get immersed in a story. And I read my first Kristen Hannah book. If you're a reader, you know, probably know who she is. I read my first Kristen Hannah book a few weeks ago and I just was like sucked into this World War two-story and these two women and their lives and yeah, it's just so immersive. It's like watching ATV show, but you're reading it kind of thing. And so I would honestly choose reading because I can read historical fiction.

38:53 I can read, you know, business books. I would choose read. I just like, and here's the thing, I used to hate reading. Like I avoided it by the plague. And then I started traveling. And I don't know how long ago this. So I started traveling and one day I just grabbed a book and I started reading. I remember being on a plane one time and what, I don't even know what book it was, but this book was hysterical and I'm laughing out loud and we landed and the guy sitting across the aisle for me, he said, I have never watched somebody read a book and laugh as much as you did. And it's a really good, it's a really good book. It's really funny. So I would I would choose to immerse myself in a book.

39:33 That's fascinating to me. I'd have never read a book, although I don't read a lot of books and the type of books maybe don't invoke it, but I don't know that I've ever really laughed out loud or really expressed any emotion out loud from reading a book. And I know people do. I'm just saying it's interesting to me 'cause I haven't. Nick, you wanted to add something. Go ahead. It's all the. Stigma that people put on the different platforms and people feel self-conscious about it because of that. It's to me if you say, oh I watch YouTube all day, that's basically the same as saying, well I've been to Netflix all day and people are just assuming you're vegging out couch potato fries and popcorn and everything where?

40:19 If you say. Oh, I listen to podcasts all day. People are assuming you're doing other things while you're listening to the podcast and you're not just laying out there listening to it. And I think that perspective or that like mindset thing, like I agree. If if I said I watch YouTube all day, I'm I'm thinking, oh man, do I sound like I'm a piece of trash, Like I just didn't do anything all day. But the stigma that we put on it, it's not fair. I don't think it's necessarily right, but I get it. Yeah, I I'm with you there. That feeling guilt that she said, you know, if I've spent my whole Sunday afternoon watching YouTube, I would feel slightly guilty about it. Yeah, I think you're right. And Jonathan touched on it too.

40:59 I think that sometimes that kind of statement really is us, ourselves judging ourselves, right? Or it's a fear of what we think others, how we think others will judge us. But really what's most important is how did we use it? What? And was that the intention of how we used that platform? That's all that matters. It really everything else is just noise and worrying about what others think isn't going to get you very far. I saw something in the chat Renee had said, let me see here, Renee. It was something Nick, you had agreed. Ah, here it was. I think you had agreed with something that she had just said. Do you know what I'm referring to?

41:39 I think it was the YouTube experts recommends more of what I'm watching. This algorithm is better than podcast recommendations, which are not so good. Yes, that is it. Thank you. I was, I couldn't find it. Yeah, I'm. I'm with you there too, Renee. YouTube expertly recommends more of what she's watching and their algorithm is a lot better than the podcast platforms. Yeah, that it's very true. And that's actually Renee, probably why I now I'm making that connection again. When I said, oh, I'm surprised. I actually do think I use YouTube more when it comes to finding and catching podcasts. I think that's probably it for me is that I know that YouTube delivers more of what I want, whether I'm looking for it or not.

42:24 So I think that has the big that's a big factor to consider. I'm going to go to you Dr. for a second, DRI. We have a few more points about this clip, but at the same time, I know we have a couple of other clips. Where do you think we should go? Should we keep digging in here or should we play one of the other clips? I like the power clip. OK. Can you play that one? I can play the power clip. So this is another clip. And do you know, is this more of it's from the same podcast, but is this more of Rachel or is this somebody else? I think this is someone else actually. OK, I will play. It to detect the voices. OK, I'll play it and then we will check it out. The listener holds all the power. Yeah.

43:05 I mean, I've had messages before when when I ran ads that that the audience didn't think aligned with who I was or what they thought the show was. And we've removed the ads. And it doesn't happen on radio. On TV. You're not going to call up and demand that an ad gets removed and you can lobby. It can happen. It just it's not going to get removed on a podcast. I've done it many times. Or I'm held accountable for my audience for things that I've said on the show or things in old episodes in the back catalog from 4-5 years ago that they go, you know, you said this and you go. Wow, like the? Audience in podcasts holds a lot of the power. All right, so Dr. talk to me, tell me a little bit why this one captured your attention and where you want to go with that. In light of current events, the power of the word, the power of what you say, things that you might have said 20 years ago, you know, you people evolved as a person you might be in total and complete, you know, 180 turn from where you are, what where you were then.

44:03 So how much accountability should podcasters accepts the things they said years ago, given how values and contexts shift over time? Oh, Jonathan wants to chime in on that. I will bite my tongue. Go ahead, Jonathan A. 100% accountability. But that doesn't mean that you have to be. It doesn't mean that you have to stand by what you said 20 years ago. You say, yeah, I said that 20 years ago. I was a different person. Things change. Here's what I believe now. But you, you are 100% accountable for the things you say, especially publicly, and you should be I I don't see a reason why people wouldn't be 100% accountable for the things that they say. This thank you, Jonathan.

44:47 And this reminds me a little bit of something that was in the news not that long ago when Kevin Hart was getting grilled because of a statement he had made something like 15 years prior and was and was under the gun about that back 15 years ago. And then it somehow resurfaced and he had to deal with it all over again. And I respect really how he dealt with it 'cause I, the way I remember this story, he basically said, listen, I've already shared my, my regrets, my apologies, my statements about that thing that I said and I'm only focusing now on moving forward. And that seemed to shut things up and shut things down. That surprised me that it shut things down because social media as a medium, it just, they just keep rolling with it. I mean, there's always these, what do they call them? Keyboard warriors, keyboard Cowboys, trolls that want to keep it going, that want to keep poking the bear. Yep, that is true.

45:52 And I think I've come to learn you know these things when they happen like the the couple that were allegedly cheating at the Coldplay concert, right? It comes in hard and fast and strong, but if you can ride it out it eventually it dies out and it feels like it dies out relatively quickly. Like that thing probably that reference I just made that was probably lasted about 3 or 4 weeks of some intense Internet content, but then it really all of a sudden went away. This is a really fascinating area to go down. And OK, I saw, I think Alex. You are hit the nail on the head because we have everything on tape or we can recall stuff.

46:36 Yes, to Jonathan's point, I'm, I'm 100% you have to take accountability for what you say. But at the same time, you also, people have to also understand the context at which things are done. And I think that's the biggest problem to, you know, to roll a clip of somebody in their worst moment and you don't have the context before and after that. Yeah, it makes them look bad or good. And even if they were bad, I mean, Time magazine, you know, they don't wait. They weren't looking good when they put Hitler on the on the cover, you know, but as a man of the year, I mean, that's the ultimate thing. But times were different that and, and now, you know, there's not a lot of forgiveness. And I think that's the problem.

47:20 People have changed because they don't want to forgive. They don't want to have contacts and we're in a gotcha mentality. And the problem I see is it's not if it's when it's going to come to you. So if you're going to be, if you're going to have the guts to, to come up to the mic and make an opinion, you better be able to defend it. But also you have to be able to tell people that you're growing with it. I mean, there are some things that are just like if you want to call it ultimate sins kind of thing. But at the same time, people have positions all the time and and they get them wrong. And hopefully you can convince people that you have forgiveness, or in that case of the Coldplay thing, it just dies away. Yeah, I think that there's a point there in there where we evolve as people, our opinions change over time. I often let me take that back.

48:10 I every so often I think about my old show that, you know, what I consider was a pretty successful show. I was a different person back then. I started that show well over 10 years ago at this point. I can't even. I got to go back and look, but. And I know I was a different person. I know I had different opinions and different beliefs and that those are out there and that and it lives out there. And where I'm going with that is yeah. But what every so often, I can't say I worry, but I question maybe do I want to take that, some of that stuff down? Because I have no idea really what I said and what might offend people today that didn't offend them ten years ago.

48:52 I think over time people do soften. I mean, you know, the the example I gave of Kevin Hart is maybe an exception because if we look at other content that's out there on other platforms, old TV shows, right? The one that came to mind to me just now, which again dates me, so it is all in the family, the Archie Bunker show. And that was the joke of the show, too. But he was bigoted. He was racist. You know, he hated anybody that wasn't like him and he made it very clear. But the people that were on that show, nobody's coming after them today saying how horrible they are, right? Yeah, because some people can get away with the ultimate sin and saying those things because they that is who they are and that is what they believe and they stand so strongly on that that nobody goes against them.

49:44 So in all honesty, if you believe what you're saying, you have the ability to stand up on that and say that. And you know, people are going to disagree with you, but they're not going to come at you because that's who you are. And I think that's something that's really important to remember if if you believe in something as awful as it might be, I mean, there's a lot of things that were said by people recently that I'm like sitting there going, I can't believe these things are being said, but they're getting away with it because they're those people and there's people that support them and believe them and that's what they're known for. So, you know, yes, there's ultimate sin sort of things that people say, but there's a lot of people that get away with it because that's what they believe.

50:28 Thank you, Jonathan. And I'm going to check back in or not back in, check in for the first time set back because we've been talking about her in the chat. Renee is on stage. Good morning to you, Renee. What did? I'm going to give you the last word. I'll make this real quick because I know we're shutting down here, but with regards to watching Archie Bunker, I may be one of the oldest in this room here. And I remember watching that, as, you know, somebody in elementary school, and I just might be. Sid. Sid just gave her the thumbs down, implying that he's the oldest. Maybe we'll have to find out if. Ever. We might have to find. We might have time. Dr. might have a say in that too. OK, go ahead, Renee.

51:08 Well, anyways, I was, you know, watching it as a youngster, probably 7th, 8th grade, elementary school, and and I looked at it as shaping me as who I am because I looked at the audacity of the things that was coming out of his mouth and everything. So me, it was a spotlight shown on him as unacceptable. It was laughed at in my household. Like, Can you believe somebody could be this way? So it was not a thumbs up. Yeah. These are great things that he's saying. Yeah, I agree with them. It was a spotlight shown on the stupidity of it and the two people living the the son-in-law and daughter-in-law living in the household were the ones that were calling him out on it.

51:52 They were embarrassed by it. And so I believe I give credit to that to helping shape me to not be a bigot and to realize skin color means nothing. And what people, I look at the person and their actions, and that's what I accept. And I learned that from that show. So that's what I got out of it from my age group. Thank you, Renee. And yeah, it's such a good point. And what I'm now realizing is maybe that was not a great example what I threw out there. And maybe somebody or a show like the Howard Stern Show might be more appropriate in the example I gave because, you know, he used to, he used to be a lot more raw and raunchy than he is today. And I think that he that's a very intentional move. I think he wanted to steer away from that. Is he still somewhat of a shock jock? OK, sure.

52:43 I I'll give him that. And he's not the same guy anymore. And he'd, I don't think he wants to be identified as that guy anymore. I don't think he's, I don't think he's ashamed of it, but I think he wants to evolve and move on. And I think for the most part, his audience has accepted that. Some of them don't like it because they want the old raunchy Howard Stern, but I think for the most part, his audience respects the decision. And the ones that don't left. Yeah. Sid Go. Ahead, thank you. So First off, Renee, always appreciate your insights. But I can guarantee you that Dr. is older than you because she's older than me and I'm just a little bit younger than her. So let's just leave it there.

53:28 Yes, you have. So. What I was going to say, Mark, is we can save this for another day, but the part of the clip that you played that we totally ignored was the purpose of the clip, which is the power of the audience, the power of the listener. And I think we should, just should explore that. And because I believe that our listeners and our audience, especially those that hit play every week or every day, whatever your cadence is, have a lot of power. And I think that's worthy of us discussing a little bit more. I love that Sid great tease and we will do that maybe as soon as next week. Let's let's revisit that and please help me remember that as well.

54:13 And maybe Ashley, please write that down as well. One other thing. Yeah, that's why it's the podcast morning chat and then not the night chat because we need to keep it to a certain time. I just wanted to let you know that because when I was doing the Friday night chat, it wasn't as successful as it could have been. Everybody was asleep and Nick and Nick was out. So that's why, including myself, I was asleep too. So don't feel like it was it was any other person. All of us old farts. OK, Thank you all for a great conversation. We are back tomorrow live from Charlotte, NC at the Empowered Podcasting 2 Conference. I can't believe I'm saying that out loud right now. Very excited.

55:02 And please join us. We will be live from there, sharing what's going on, what we're looking forward to, what's gone wrong so far. No, I shouldn't put that out there. But we will share all the details with you and a lot of the people that you're hearing from today will be there live with me tomorrow. So please come join the fun. And especially if for some reason you can't make it to Empowered Podcasting, this is your chance to be a small part of what we're doing. We would love for you to do that. So come join us 7:00 AM Eastern, live on Clubhouse, live on YouTube. And if you miss it, you can always catch the podcast just a couple hours later on your favorite podcast platform. So until tomorrow, make it a great day and a safe trip to those of you traveling.

55:46 Take care, everybody.