541. Why Most Podcasts Don’t Grow: Audience Growth with Rob Walsh

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Marc Ronick: Good morning,

podcasters.

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Today is Tuesday, june 23 2026
and today
podcasting has never

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00:00:14,267 --> 00:00:17,650
been bigger, yet creators still
struggle to get discovered,

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grow an audience, and make
money.

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Rob
Walch joins us to discuss
what's changed and where indie


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podcasters should focus next.
So, if you're listening live on

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00:00:27,215 --> 00:00:29,733
Clubhouse, hit the share
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the
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however Clubhouse lets you.

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And if
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podcast, YouTube, etc. please

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00:00:35,766 --> 00:00:39,315
share this
episode with a
fellow podcaster.

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And now, give us about 30

seconds, and we'll get things

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rolling.
Thanks for being here.


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The podcasting morning show is
powered by Ironick Media,


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helping podcasters launch,
polish, and grow great shows,


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and by Content creators
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build real business behind their
content.

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Good morning again,
podcasting
morning show.

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Thank you so much for being
here.

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And
I am so glad to be back in
the home studio.

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It's been three
weeks since
I've actually been here, sitting

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at my familiar
desk, so it's
great to be back.

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I know I was doing shows last

week, but that was from all

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different places, Maryland,

Atlantic City, et cetera.

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So, it's great to be here.
And let
me introduce my

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co-hosts.
Currently here with me, we have

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Ralph Estep, DR. Fay, and we
also have our guest here, Rob


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Walch.
And also, by the way, Dan

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Schultz has joined us on stage

as well.

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And good morning to Tim, Dave,
and Jessica has
already joined

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us here in the audience on
Clubhouse, so yeah,
we are

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going to talk with Hall of Famer
Rob Walch here in a
second,

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but let's do this formally,
properly.

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Ralph, I'm
going to hand the
baton to you.

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Please introduce our guest

today.

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Ralph Estep Jr.: Well, thank

you, Mark.

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It's my pleasure to do that.
Our guest today has
been in

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podcasting almost as long as
podcasting has existed.


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Rob Walch started back in 2004
before most people even knew


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what a podcast was, and he
founded a show called Podcast


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411 It's one of the very first
shows about people actually


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making podcasts.
Rob went on to spend 18 years at

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Libsyn as VP
of Podcaster
Relations.

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He's a member of the Podcasting
Hall of
Fame, and he co-wrote

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a book, Tricks of the Podcasting

Masters, which Amazon named a

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top 10 reference book.
Today,
he's VP of podcaster

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relations at Captivate, working
alongside
Dax USA on the exact

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questions every creator is
wrestling with
right now,

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questions like growth, money,
AI, and yes,
video.

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There are many people who can
connect where podcasting


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started to where it's headed.
Rob is one of them.

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Rob, thank
you so much for
joining us.

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And welcome to the show today.
Rob Walch: Thank you very much


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for having me on.
Marc Ronick: Great to have you


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here, Rob.
And let's dig into the first

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point that Ralph
shared.
You've been in podcasts in this

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world longer than almost

anybody, and probably a year or

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two longer than I have.
I always
am proud to say I've

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been doing this for over 20
years, and I
think you've

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surpassed me.
Take us back to 2004 What was

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your
impression of podcasting
back then, and what made you

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jump
into it in the first
place?

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Rob Walch: My impression back

then, when it first started out,

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it reminded me of the BBS era of

the early 1980s so that was,

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you know, it was.
Marc Ronick: Were you a part of

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that?
And by the way, that's bulletin

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board system for those.

Yes, Rob Walch: yes, I was on

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Long
Island, and I was lucky
enough to have a local number to

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Pirates Cove, which was one of
the big BBSs.

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Marc Ronick: I was a CompuServe
guy.

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Rob Walch: Yes, yeah, and we

used to pass around those

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CompuServe passwords.
That was
what BBSs were good

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for.
So, podcasting to me was very


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community-oriented in the very
early days, because it had to


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be, because it wasn't where you
ask somebody what, like, today


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you ask people what podcasts
they listen to.

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Back then, you
go, have you
ever heard of this thing called

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podcasting?
Oh,
yeah, and then you had to

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explain to them how to get this
third-party app, iPod or X, and

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how to use that to subscribe to
an RSS feed to transfer to your

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iPod.
That literally was how it


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worked back in the day.
So it was a very different

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medium.

Apple wasn't in there supporting

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it yet, much more niche, much

more community at that point,

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because it had to be.
Marc Ronick: Yeah, I remember


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that well.
And it's so cool.

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I was just talking about
bulletin
board systems with

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somebody, because we were long
story, but
I was just talking

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about how I've been on the
internet longer
than most

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people, right?
Because those CompuServes and

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other
platforms, that was the
way that we all communicated.

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I created a
fanzine, like a
magazine for pod, for not for

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podcasting.
I
wish this one was for comic

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books, and I used to find

guests, in other words,

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interviews for that platform,

and I would find, like, comic,

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literally comic book authors.
I
interviewed people like the

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Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles

creator, and all that kind of

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thing, so yeah, that was like

really the early days, that was

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before podcasting, and a lot of
us ended up transitioning there

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decades later.
So that's really
cool, Ralph.

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You had a question.
Ralph Estep Jr.: Yeah, Rob, you

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founded Podcast 411 before
people even knew what a podcast

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was.
I mean, you had to do a lot of

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work, I guess.
Did it feel
like the start of

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an industry, or did it feel like
some strange
experiment?

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Only a small group of people
understood Rob Walch: it felt

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like a well,
initially it was
a small group of people that

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only understood
it, like only
the tech.

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It was really two groups, I
mean, it
was two groups of

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people podcasting back in 2004
techie
geeks, which is where I

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fell in, and musicians, because
we were
the only ones that had

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the equipment or the know-how to
get
it to work, so you had

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people, you know, like Dave
Jackson, who
was on the

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musician side, you had myself
that was more on the
geeky

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side, Mer Lafferty on the geeky
side, Rob Greenlee on the


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geeky side, so there was that,
was what it was, it was a nice


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mix of folks, some really
strange folks know you had a


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yeast radio with Madge
Weinstein, so those are some


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real interesting characters in
those early days.

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But I started
podcast 411
because I wanted to start

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podcasting in October of
2004
and I looked around, there was

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not a single tutorial other

than this one article in

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Engadget that said, "Hey, if you

want a podcast, just put this

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enclosure tag in your RSS feed,
and you're good to go.

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And I'm like, what?
What did that just
say?

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And so I engineer, I figured it
out, and I said,
well, if I,

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you know, it took me this long
to figure it out, I'm
going to

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help people.
And I wrote a nice tutorial

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about how
to do all that
manually, your feed.

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And then there's some
services
started coming along to help

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podcasters, and then

eventually, by middle of 2005

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Apple jumped in and put

podcasting into iTunes, and that

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really opened the door.
That was
really where the

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first inflection point of
podcasting
really started.

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Marc Ronick: I have to pause

here and go off script, quote

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unquote, and I have to point

something out.

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Rob, is that a Blue Yeti?
Rob Walch: Oh, this is a Yeti


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Pro, Marc Ronick: okay?
A Yeti Pro,
okay?

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Yeti Rob Walch: Yeti Pro, Marc
Ronick: okay?

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So, not the
Blue Yeti
specifically, okay?

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Cool.
All right, because I was
gonna

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ask, because a lot of people poo
poo the Yeti, and
especially

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the Blue Yeti, and I Rob Walch:
don't know how to use
it Marc

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Ronick: exactly.
That's
what I was just.. you

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need Rob Walch: a quiet room,
that's
all.

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You just need a quiet room with
the Yeti, and it's a good
mic,

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and I like the sound of my voice
off of it.

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And on top of
that, I work
with a lot of people that are

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starting out,
and this is a
mic that a lot of people will

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use starting out, so
it gives
me a chance to tell them, here's

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what you need to
do, you got
to set this little gain here

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over near the G, don't

overturn it up, but yes, and I

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use this, the Pro, because it

has both USB XLR, so I can

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switch, depending on how I'm

doing, I'm running it directly

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into my Zoom recorder.
Sometimes
I'm running it to,

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like, today, USB into my
MacBook.

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Marc Ronick: Got it?
Okay, cool.


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So, there you go, people.
It's just a matter of knowing

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how to
use some of the
equipment before we go and poo

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poo them.
And so,
let's get into some

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other areas here.
What's one thing early


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podcasters understood better
than some creators understand


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today.
Rob Walch: I'll go back to the


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quiet room, because early on I
was a lot of musicians, and they

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understood acoustics, and they
knew how to have their room and

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everything situated.
This is not the most ideal

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acoustics in this
room, but
compared to my last studio, but

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having a nice quiet
place is
really important.

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The other thing was community.
I
think the early podcasters

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knew that it was really about
getting
out and finding other

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podcasters to become friends
with, to cross
promote with.

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You had to cross promote back
then.

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You had no
choice.
You had to.

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A lot of podcasters today will
get in and
do their initial,

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they never talk to another
podcaster, and
I'll ask

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podcasters, you know, like, who
else, what other shows
are you

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talking with, or where you
crossborting, like, oh, I


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don't know anybody else in
podcasting, and that I think is

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really sad, and I think that's
probably the biggest change in


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the podcasting community, is
that there's a lot of people, a

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lot today, that just come in to
get an account set up somewhere,

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and they never talk to another
podcaster.

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Marc Ronick: Yeah, yeah,

absolutely.

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Yeah, Ralph, go ahead.
Ralph Estep Jr.: Yeah, Rob, you

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were named one of the most
influential people in podcasting

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very early on, and you
co-authored a book I mentioned a

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little while ago, Tricks of
the Podcasting Masters, back in

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2006
Rob, when you look back
at the advice people needed

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then,
what's funny to you now,
what's outdated, or what's

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surprisingly
still true.
Back to that original date, 2006

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Rob Walch: I think we mentioned
using MySpace, so that would

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probably be pretty funny.
So,
yeah, I mean, yeah, that's

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for a promotion point of view.
I mean,
there's some of the

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services that we talked about
have long
since died.

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We, I don't think we talked to.
Much about Facebook,
or even

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at all, because we were writing
that book.

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We started
writing it at the
end of 2005 and so, yeah,

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there's some
things in there,
just we don't mention you at all

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in that book,
I don't think.
So that's definitely changed.

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So you know,
back in the day,
back in 2005 podcasting was a

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mix of audio
and video, there
was when you looked at the big

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shows, there
was just as many
big shows that were videos that

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were audio.

It's funny how it's come back

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around to that now.
Marc Ronick: Yeah, and that's


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what I'm excited about with this
conversation, because you've


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seen podcasting go from this
small experimental thing into a

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massive media category now.
So, let's talk about what's

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actually
changed.
Right, a lot of independent

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podcasters listening
right now
wonder if they're too late to

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get into this game now.

Based on everything you've seen,

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is podcasting harder to break

into now, or are the

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opportunities just different?
Rob Walch: Well, to break into


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it's harder, but you still,
there's still not that many


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people podcasting when you look
at the reality.

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00:11:06,698 --> 00:11:09,524
How many active
podcasts there
are that have released a new

215
00:11:09,524 --> 00:11:12,214
episode in the
last 90 days?
That number really hasn't

216
00:11:12,214 --> 00:11:14,124
changed when you throw
the AI
slop out.

217
00:11:14,124 --> 00:11:17,694
That hasn't changed for humans
in the last
five plus years.

218
00:11:17,694 --> 00:11:23,074
It's right around 400,100 50,000
of
podcasts have released a

219
00:11:23,074 --> 00:11:27,140
new episode in the last 90 days,
and
that number's been really

220
00:11:27,140 --> 00:11:31,340
relatively flat, and that means
the number of people pod fading

221
00:11:31,340 --> 00:11:33,980
is equal to the number of people

podcasting, but that number is

222
00:11:33,980 --> 00:11:36,680
so much smaller than the number
of bloggers or the number of

223
00:11:36,680 --> 00:11:42,395
people that are doing YouTube

video, so podcasters, people

224
00:11:42,395 --> 00:11:45,305
putting content on an RSS feed,
you know, from my definition of

225
00:11:45,305 --> 00:11:48,245
a pod, you have an RSS feed and
your podcast is an Apple

226
00:11:48,245 --> 00:11:51,695
podcast, and it's a human

creating the content, which I

227
00:11:51,695 --> 00:11:55,415
know that last one drove some

people nuts on on on LinkedIn

228
00:11:55,445 --> 00:11:57,545
when I added that to my

definition.

229
00:11:57,545 --> 00:12:00,278
The other people hate when I
say, well, it also
has to be

230
00:12:00,278 --> 00:12:02,255
an Apple podcast.
Why does it have to be an Apple

231
00:12:02,255 --> 00:12:03,850
Podcast?
I go, because there's 400 plus

232
00:12:03,850 --> 00:12:07,040
apps in the world that

aggregate podcasts that pull

233
00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:09,594
from Apple's directory.
So, if
not an Apple Podcast,

234
00:12:09,594 --> 00:12:11,450
you're not in about the
different apps out
there.

235
00:12:11,450 --> 00:12:13,610
Marc Ronick: I appreciate you

saying it that way, right?

236
00:12:13,610 --> 00:12:16,340
Because a lot of people just

kind of stand on that hill and

237
00:12:16,340 --> 00:12:20,232
say, if it's not on Apple, or if

it's not this or that, then

238
00:12:20,232 --> 00:12:23,073
it's not a podcast, but I
appreciate
you putting it in

239
00:12:23,073 --> 00:12:25,745
that way, because yeah, if
you're not on
Apple, then

240
00:12:25,745 --> 00:12:28,355
you're probably not getting
distributed to all of
these

241
00:12:28,355 --> 00:12:30,455
different platforms.
So, thank you for saying that.

242
00:12:30,875 --> 00:12:33,395
Rob Walch: And a lot of times

people say to you, well, what's

243
00:12:33,395 --> 00:12:34,625
the what's your Apple podcast

URL?

244
00:12:34,625 --> 00:12:37,655
I want to look at your podcast,
and if you don't have
an Apple

245
00:12:37,655 --> 00:12:40,270
Podcast URL, talk about that,
like UK, so you're not
really

246
00:12:40,270 --> 00:12:43,277
a podcast, or you're just
someone who's got a video show


247
00:12:43,285 --> 00:12:46,871
on YouTube, or you're just
someone that has a webcast or


248
00:12:46,879 --> 00:12:49,670
net cast that just basically
putting audio up on their


249
00:12:49,678 --> 00:12:51,932
website, and they're not really
distributing it, they just want

250
00:12:51,932 --> 00:12:54,635
you to come to their website,
and that's podcasting.

251
00:12:54,635 --> 00:12:58,348
I think
the core part about
podcasting was universal

252
00:12:58,348 --> 00:13:02,264
distribution
everywhere, that
was the whole idea of it, was to

253
00:13:02,264 --> 00:13:04,529
be out
everywhere, and by
putting yourself into Apple

254
00:13:04,529 --> 00:13:06,532
Podcast, you
are putting
yourself to most places.

255
00:13:06,532 --> 00:13:09,999
You still have to submit
to
Spotify, and Ghana, Geosav, and

256
00:13:09,999 --> 00:13:13,175
a few others, Deezer,

iHeartRadio, Amazon User.

257
00:13:13,205 --> 00:13:16,115
There's a small group that you

still need to submit to, but the

258
00:13:16,115 --> 00:13:20,345
reality is, after you submit to
those 10 places, you're

259
00:13:20,345 --> 00:13:23,705
everywhere, and one of those 10,

by the way, puts you out 400

260
00:13:23,705 --> 00:13:25,753
other places.
In which one is
that?

261
00:13:25,753 --> 00:13:26,642
Apple.
Marc Ronick: Yep.

262
00:13:26,642 --> 00:13:28,427
All right.
Now
I know, DR. You have a

263
00:13:28,427 --> 00:13:29,835
question.
I'm going to come to you, and


264
00:13:29,843 --> 00:13:32,084
I'm going to remind everyone
that if you are on stage and


265
00:13:32,092 --> 00:13:34,310
want to ask a question, you are
more than welcome.

266
00:13:34,310 --> 00:13:37,400
And if you
are listening live,
go ahead and put your question

267
00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:40,294
in the chat,
or, of course, if
you're on Clubhouse, come up on

268
00:13:40,294 --> 00:13:42,360
stage and
ask it here in
person.

269
00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:45,136
Love to have you there.
Here, so with
that, DR. What

270
00:13:45,136 --> 00:13:48,888
was your question?
DR: Okay, so when it comes to


271
00:13:48,896 --> 00:13:52,075
podcasting, Rob, you are
probably one of the most


272
00:13:52,083 --> 00:13:54,171
knowledgeable people on this
earth.

273
00:13:54,171 --> 00:13:59,157
What is it that has
surprised
you with all your knowledge

274
00:13:59,157 --> 00:14:01,738
about podcasting?
What
is it in the past 20

275
00:14:01,738 --> 00:14:04,740
years since you've written the
book that has
really thrown

276
00:14:04,740 --> 00:14:07,446
you for a loop?
Maybe it's something that you


277
00:14:07,454 --> 00:14:09,900
made a prediction about and it
didn't come true.

278
00:14:10,770 --> 00:14:14,400
Rob Walch: And I think the one

thing that surprised me most is

279
00:14:14,460 --> 00:14:18,090
some really good podcasts that I

just thought these are going

280
00:14:18,090 --> 00:14:21,762
to take off, they're going to be

huge hits, some even with a

281
00:14:21,762 --> 00:14:25,850
list celebrities that just never

picked up an audience, so I

282
00:14:25,910 --> 00:14:29,870
think overall what surprised me
the most about in podcasting is

283
00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:33,153
those shows that have connected
and the shows that have, I

284
00:14:33,153 --> 00:14:35,724
mean, they're in the ones that
haven't
probably surprised me

285
00:14:35,724 --> 00:14:39,070
more than anything else.
They're the late
Louie

286
00:14:39,070 --> 00:14:42,607
Anderson had, I thought he had a
great podcast, and it just


287
00:14:42,615 --> 00:14:44,960
never took off.
And I really loved his show, and

288
00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:47,024
there's been
others.
I don't want to name names,

289
00:14:47,024 --> 00:14:49,522
because they're still
alive.
Well, I'll name another one:

290
00:14:49,522 --> 00:14:52,978
Norm McDonald's podcast.
I
loved Norm's podcast, and

291
00:14:52,978 --> 00:14:56,089
Norm McDonald - Norm, it never
really
hit the numbers I

292
00:14:56,089 --> 00:14:57,758
thought it had the potential to
be.

293
00:14:57,758 --> 00:15:00,074
I mean,
Norm was was one of
the funniest people I.

294
00:15:00,074 --> 00:15:03,460
Ever talked with, ever
met,
and his show was hilarious, and

295
00:15:03,460 --> 00:15:06,560
I guess maybe that just
might
be my personal bias.

296
00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:10,350
I liked his sense of humor, but
there were just a few others

297
00:15:10,620 --> 00:15:13,380
that are still alive and won't

name names that I thought had

298
00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:17,250
really great shows that just

never, never connected, and I

299
00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:19,724
don't know what it was.
You just
never know what it

300
00:15:19,724 --> 00:15:20,930
is.
And then there's others that

301
00:15:20,930 --> 00:15:23,472
I've seen
the numbers to, and
I go, man, they must be this

302
00:15:23,472 --> 00:15:25,700
must be a BS.

Okay, there's no way this show

303
00:15:25,820 --> 00:15:28,160
is doing that well, and I have

to go and look into dig in the

304
00:15:28,250 --> 00:15:31,790
numbers and go, wow, really is

okay, or those numbers are

305
00:15:31,910 --> 00:15:34,970
legit, the person really does

have that size audience, and so

306
00:15:35,420 --> 00:15:38,000
yeah, Marc Ronick: How do you,
when
you say you dig into the

307
00:15:38,090 --> 00:15:41,920
numbers, how do you do that,

because from a from from the

308
00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:44,680
public side of things, it's you
don't get to see it the way you

309
00:15:44,710 --> 00:15:46,480
get to see YouTube's numbers,

for example.

310
00:15:46,930 --> 00:15:49,600
Rob Walch: Yeah, well, I've had
the advantage that I've been

311
00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:53,560
working at hosting companies for

the last 20 years, yeah, 19

312
00:15:53,590 --> 00:15:55,870
years, and I've been able to

literally go in and see what

313
00:15:55,990 --> 00:15:58,810
numbers are and really dig, and
there's other things you can do

314
00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:02,154
when shows you don't have access

to the numbers that you can

315
00:16:02,154 --> 00:16:06,750
do, and do some checks, sanity

checks, like in Apple Podcasts,

316
00:16:06,780 --> 00:16:10,102
and elsewhere.
You can see if a
show is quote

317
00:16:10,102 --> 00:16:14,385
unquote in the top 10, it's
constantly in the top
10 of

318
00:16:14,385 --> 00:16:18,344
Apple Podcast category, but
never is in the top 200 for
an

319
00:16:18,344 --> 00:16:21,894
episode in that category, right?
You're going, hmm, all
right.

320
00:16:21,894 --> 00:16:26,125
So, there's some people that
have drove their numbers up
on

321
00:16:26,125 --> 00:16:30,098
shows by hiring services out of
Malaysia and other places to


322
00:16:30,106 --> 00:16:32,352
subscribe.
Right, the way Apple does the

323
00:16:32,352 --> 00:16:36,535
top 200 show subscribe
lists
is based on the number of new

324
00:16:36,535 --> 00:16:40,780
subscribers in the last 24

hours, 2448 72 hours weighted

325
00:16:40,900 --> 00:16:44,590
average, and then the last week
overall, and that's different

326
00:16:44,590 --> 00:16:47,080
than how they do the episode,

which is based on consumption.

327
00:16:47,770 --> 00:16:51,250
So you can look and see if a

show is in that top 20

328
00:16:51,850 --> 00:16:55,480
constantly, but never shows in

the top 200 for an episode.

329
00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:57,430
You know it doesn't have real

consumption, you know the

330
00:16:57,490 --> 00:17:01,590
numbers would be yes, but then

also getting into seeing the raw

331
00:17:01,740 --> 00:17:04,740
numbers and server logs, and

being able to look in and where

332
00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:05,865
those downloads are coming from.



333
00:17:05,873 --> 00:17:07,890
Are they coming from the US?
Are they all coming?

334
00:17:07,890 --> 00:17:10,332
Are they coming
from the US?
But all the downloads are from

335
00:17:10,332 --> 00:17:12,854
Georgia, for
some reason.
All right, something's not

336
00:17:12,854 --> 00:17:14,688
right.
And so
there's easy ways to

337
00:17:14,688 --> 00:17:17,700
tell when numbers are fraudulent
or bogus.


338
00:17:17,708 --> 00:17:20,397
So, Ralph Estep Jr.: and Rob,
that
really leads us right

339
00:17:20,397 --> 00:17:22,694
into the growth question, you
kind of
been dancing around

340
00:17:22,694 --> 00:17:25,308
that, and a lot of creators
aren't just
wondering if

341
00:17:25,308 --> 00:17:28,040
podcasting still works, they're
wondering why
their show

342
00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:30,606
growing faster.
Do you have some ideas of what

343
00:17:30,606 --> 00:17:33,210
the
folks who are tuned in
this morning and saying, "Oh

344
00:17:33,210 --> 00:17:35,770
yeah,
Rob's a great guy, he's
been around forever, he's got to

345
00:17:35,770 --> 00:17:38,024
know
some hacks for me to be
able to see growth.

346
00:17:38,024 --> 00:17:39,260
Do you have any of
those,
Rock?

347
00:17:39,590 --> 00:17:41,500
Rob Walch: Okay, so first,

there's no silver bullet, but

348
00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:45,630
there are some things you can do

to increase your probability

349
00:17:45,630 --> 00:17:49,240
of growing your show, releasing
on
a consistent basis, right?

350
00:17:49,630 --> 00:17:52,900
Release on Tuesday morning,

release on Wednesday morning,

351
00:17:53,620 --> 00:17:57,010
Thursday morning, Thursday

afternoon, wherever it is, be

352
00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:00,430
consistent, so people know when
to expect your new content.

353
00:18:01,150 --> 00:18:03,480
Everybody has the luxury of

being a Dan Carlin, where you

354
00:18:03,510 --> 00:18:07,050
can release once every, I don't
know, nine months, 12 months,

355
00:18:07,620 --> 00:18:11,520
and still get 3 million

downloads, but for the rest of

356
00:18:11,580 --> 00:18:16,110
us folks, we need to release on
a consistent basis, and then be

357
00:18:16,290 --> 00:18:19,530
consistent in the formatting,

consistent in what the content

358
00:18:19,590 --> 00:18:22,370
you're doing, because people are

having certain expectations of

359
00:18:22,370 --> 00:18:25,520
your show, and then most

importantly, interact with your

360
00:18:25,580 --> 00:18:27,959
audience.
It is so important to
have a

361
00:18:27,959 --> 00:18:31,020
call-in number when people have
looked at, and Apple
looked at

362
00:18:31,020 --> 00:18:33,560
this, and I've looked at this,
and some others have
looked at

363
00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:35,268
this.
When we looked at shows that

364
00:18:35,268 --> 00:18:38,332
launched, and they
launched
with 10 episodes, five episodes,

365
00:18:38,332 --> 00:18:43,680
321, what was found,
what I
found was one in three shows

366
00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:45,970
that launched with one in

three episodes did better than

367
00:18:45,970 --> 00:18:49,243
those that launched with five,

and 10 did the worst.

368
00:18:49,243 --> 00:18:52,536
Apple looked at it, they found
that
was two, it was the ideal

369
00:18:52,536 --> 00:18:55,936
number of episodes, and the
reason is
when you launch with

370
00:18:55,936 --> 00:18:58,300
10, you're giving an expectation
to your
audience that they're

371
00:18:58,300 --> 00:19:01,118
not going to be part of your
show, but
when you launch with

372
00:19:01,118 --> 00:19:03,938
one or two, you're saying right
from the
beginning, hey,

373
00:19:03,938 --> 00:19:07,881
here's my call-in number, email
address,
send us some, send us

374
00:19:07,881 --> 00:19:11,160
some questions, be part of the
show,
be part of this

375
00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:14,220
community, and the shows that
can grow a
community can grow

376
00:19:14,220 --> 00:19:17,350
a show.
If you've never, as a podcaster,

377
00:19:17,350 --> 00:19:20,170

interacted with anybody, and
your audience isn't growing, I


378
00:19:20,178 --> 00:19:22,844
could tell you that right now.
Marc Ronick: That's fascinating,

379
00:19:22,844 --> 00:19:25,482

and I never had heard that
before, and that's really


380
00:19:25,490 --> 00:19:27,809
interesting.
Usually, I recommend three, but

381
00:19:27,809 --> 00:19:31,430
that makes
a lot of sense now.
So, I think I'm going to start

382
00:19:31,430 --> 00:19:34,850
pushing two
to my clients.
So, when a podcaster comes to

383
00:19:34,850 --> 00:19:37,300
you, Robin
says, "I want to
grow.

384
00:19:37,300 --> 00:19:40,490
What do you wish that they
understood
first?

385
00:19:41,449 --> 00:19:45,339
Rob Walch: Well, well, yeah.

First off, there are no..

386
00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:49,539
there's no service out there

that you can hire that will be a

387
00:19:49,599 --> 00:19:52,209
light switch that will turn on

your numbers, will jump up, I

388
00:19:52,299 --> 00:19:55,179
mean, legitimately jump up.

There are services you can hire,

389
00:19:55,629 --> 00:19:58,719
your downloads will jump up, but

your audience won't, because

390
00:19:58,749 --> 00:20:00,045
when you turn that service off.


391
00:20:00,053 --> 00:20:03,639
If it drops, a matter of fact, a
lot of the people that are using

392
00:20:03,639 --> 00:20:05,619

those services, if you
actually go and look at your

393
00:20:05,619 --> 00:20:07,532
stats,
you'll see all of a
sudden every so often you'll

394
00:20:07,532 --> 00:20:09,979
have a day or
two where the
numbers drop to nothing.

395
00:20:09,979 --> 00:20:13,424
Well, that nothing is
your
audience, because that service

396
00:20:13,424 --> 00:20:15,989
had a problem, an issue,
or
whatever it was.

397
00:20:15,989 --> 00:20:19,169
So it's really easy to tell some
of
these folks that have these

398
00:20:19,259 --> 00:20:21,769
services that are, quote, you

know, people come out of

399
00:20:21,799 --> 00:20:24,979
Bangladesh, or whatever, Fiverr,

they get you on LinkedIn,

400
00:20:25,669 --> 00:20:27,919
especially when you launch a new

podcast, they find your art,

401
00:20:28,069 --> 00:20:30,529
your email address, and they

send you an email saying, 'Hey,

402
00:20:30,799 --> 00:20:34,819
I can help you grow your show,

and it's organic growth and

403
00:20:34,999 --> 00:20:38,029
instant growth, and yada yada

yada, and it's all bs, and

404
00:20:38,059 --> 00:20:42,564
people will spend 250 300 500 or

more, I mean, the saddest

405
00:20:42,564 --> 00:20:47,262
story I heard was, I called up
this
couple, and, sad, and I

406
00:20:47,262 --> 00:20:49,249
called up this couple, I said,
'Hey,
I'm looking at your

407
00:20:49,249 --> 00:20:52,749
numbers, and these aren't legit,
and you
know, did you hire a

408
00:20:52,749 --> 00:20:56,869
marketing service, and you mind
me asking
how much you paid?

409
00:20:56,869 --> 00:21:00,117
And he goes, the husband goes,
'Yeah, he
goes, you know, I

410
00:21:00,117 --> 00:21:04,755
hired a service, and it paid
$7,000 and
the wife said the

411
00:21:04,755 --> 00:21:06,934
one thing husbands never want to
hear.

412
00:21:06,934 --> 00:21:10,475
So,
I says, 'Is service I told
you not to use?

413
00:21:10,475 --> 00:21:16,904
And I was like, 'Oh,
like, can
I just exit stage left here?

414
00:21:16,904 --> 00:21:19,469
Because you know he's
still
hearing about that today.

415
00:21:19,709 --> 00:21:21,744
Marc Ronick: Oh, I'm sure Rob
Walch: in every argument it


416
00:21:21,752 --> 00:21:24,487
doesn't matter, she could run
the cat over with the car, and


417
00:21:24,495 --> 00:21:29,930
he's, she's gonna just turn him,
because remember that one, Marc

418
00:21:29,930 --> 00:21:31,010
Ronick: that sounds like
you
might have been through

419
00:21:31,130 --> 00:21:32,246
something like that at some

point.

420
00:21:32,246 --> 00:21:34,820
I've had that, we Rob Walch:
have had that phrase
used on

421
00:21:34,820 --> 00:21:37,599
me before.
Marc Ronick: DR, go ahead.

422
00:21:37,849 --> 00:21:42,669
DR: So there is SEO, we all have

heard about SEO, and then

423
00:21:42,699 --> 00:21:47,154
there's SEO for podcasting.
Is
there indeed a difference,

424
00:21:47,154 --> 00:21:50,019
and if there is, can you explain
it?


425
00:21:50,027 --> 00:21:56,084
And also, when it comes to,
like, is there such a thing as


426
00:21:56,092 --> 00:22:00,789
keyword stuffing when it comes
to the description, the podcast

427
00:22:00,789 --> 00:22:03,346
description, or the episode
description.

428
00:22:03,346 --> 00:22:08,513
I heard that it
doesn't exist
yet, but you know, wait five

429
00:22:08,513 --> 00:22:11,146
minutes, we'll see.

So, go ahead Rob Walch: to

430
00:22:11,146 --> 00:22:13,626
answer your
question.
I used to call it I, though,

431
00:22:13,626 --> 00:22:16,624
like iTunes search

optimization, now Apple Podcast

432
00:22:16,683 --> 00:22:19,520
search optimization.
So, you
have to understand how

433
00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:21,872
out.
So, I'm going to talk about

434
00:22:21,872 --> 00:22:25,267
Apple
and Spotify here, and
because those are the two big

435
00:22:25,267 --> 00:22:27,951
ones, and
and when we talk
Apple Podcast, what?

436
00:22:27,951 --> 00:22:29,973
How search works, it's
really
simple.

437
00:22:29,973 --> 00:22:33,848
What's in the title of your show
and the
author tag, and then

438
00:22:33,848 --> 00:22:37,422
the title of your episode and
the author
tag of the episode?

439
00:22:37,422 --> 00:22:40,038
Those are the only fields that
Apple looks
at.

440
00:22:40,038 --> 00:22:43,665
So it's in the title matters.
What's the title of
your

441
00:22:43,665 --> 00:22:46,082
podcast so important?
People get really cute on


442
00:22:46,090 --> 00:22:49,830
titles, so if you want to do a
podcast about video games, you


443
00:22:49,838 --> 00:22:53,315
call it the Cheese Doodle
Podcast, because you're playing,

444
00:22:53,315 --> 00:22:56,644

you're always eating cheese
doodles when you're playing


445
00:22:56,652 --> 00:23:00,078
video games, that's cute, but
it's not what people are


446
00:23:00,086 --> 00:23:02,739
searching for.
What you want to do when you

447
00:23:02,739 --> 00:23:06,097
launch a podcast is
you want
to think about four or five

448
00:23:06,097 --> 00:23:09,090
different words, keywords
that
you would search for.

449
00:23:09,149 --> 00:23:11,606
Matter of fact, you should go

and do this.

450
00:23:11,606 --> 00:23:15,161
You should go and search for
these words in Apple
Podcast,

451
00:23:15,161 --> 00:23:18,813
see if there's podcasts on that.
But then take those
four or

452
00:23:18,813 --> 00:23:22,476
five words or terms, and then go
into Google Trends and
see

453
00:23:22,476 --> 00:23:25,635
what people actually are
searching for in the world, and

454
00:23:25,635 --> 00:23:29,459
then pick your title that way.
So, I just launched a podcast


455
00:23:29,467 --> 00:23:32,097
earlier this year.
It's called Space Business 411

456
00:23:32,097 --> 00:23:35,344
and I wanted
to talk about
space economy, space business.

457
00:23:35,344 --> 00:23:39,358
I was going to
call it Space
Economy 411 until I went into

458
00:23:39,358 --> 00:23:42,420
Google Trends and
found out
that Space Economy is searched

459
00:23:42,420 --> 00:23:45,534
for about 1/10 the
amount of
times a space business.

460
00:23:45,534 --> 00:23:49,337
So, the podcast title
became
Space Business 411 If two years

461
00:23:49,337 --> 00:23:52,694
from now, base economy is
10
times or bigger, five times

462
00:23:52,753 --> 00:23:56,121
bigger than Space Business, my

podcast title will change.

463
00:23:56,180 --> 00:23:59,843
That's the other thing I think

people get married to the title

464
00:23:59,902 --> 00:24:01,677
of their show when it's changed.



465
00:24:01,685 --> 00:24:05,664
I started out with a show called
Today an iPhone, then it became

466
00:24:05,664 --> 00:24:09,248
today an iPhone, iPod, an iPod,
iPad, and iPod touch, and then


467
00:24:09,256 --> 00:24:12,239
it became today an iOS.
I just changed and literally

468
00:24:12,239 --> 00:24:15,276
bought
domains in the middle
of an Apple keynote.

469
00:24:15,276 --> 00:24:18,768
Well, Apple's
Steve Jobs was
on stage and saying, and now

470
00:24:18,768 --> 00:24:22,624
we're going to
call it iOS,
and I went, oh, go to hover and

471
00:24:22,624 --> 00:24:26,067
bought today an
ios.com right,
you're in the middle of the

472
00:24:26,067 --> 00:24:29,553
keynote, so
changing your
title, I think, is one thing you

473
00:24:29,553 --> 00:24:32,684
can do to help
optimize,
because there's not much there

474
00:24:32,684 --> 00:24:35,298
for a search.
So
that's the first thing I'd

475
00:24:35,298 --> 00:24:38,557
say, is look at the title.
Now going
to Spotify, Spotify

476
00:24:38,557 --> 00:24:41,576
does look at description, what's
in
description?

477
00:24:41,576 --> 00:24:43,549
Absolutely, Apple absolutely
does not.

478
00:24:43,549 --> 00:24:47,154
So if you
have some words in
your description of your show

479
00:24:47,154 --> 00:24:50,578
that
can help you in the
Spotify search, but I wouldn't

480
00:24:50,578 --> 00:24:53,618
keyword
stuff it.
It doesn't do you any good in

481
00:24:53,618 --> 00:24:56,858
Apple, and not sure how
much
it does for you in Spotify.

482
00:24:56,917 --> 00:25:00,403
I just know that on certain

keywords I did find that when I

483
00:25:00,463 --> 00:25:04,185
buried them in the description,
unique phrases they did come up

484
00:25:04,244 --> 00:25:06,780
in search results.
And then
third, YouTube, and

485
00:25:06,780 --> 00:25:10,068
two is more of algorithmic
based, so you
have to get

486
00:25:10,068 --> 00:25:12,665
lucky on the algorithm on that
side of it.


487
00:25:12,673 --> 00:25:16,244
The reason I'm going to say
this, the reason I start with


488
00:25:16,252 --> 00:25:19,225
Apple and Spotify, and then
YouTube last, for most


489
00:25:19,233 --> 00:25:22,396
podcasters, forget the top 200
podcasters, right, Joe Rogan's,

490
00:25:22,396 --> 00:25:26,007
the old Vons, the Call Her
Daddies, for most podcasters,


491
00:25:26,015 --> 00:25:29,656
the their audience is Apple
number one, Spotify number two,

492
00:25:29,656 --> 00:25:33,282
a distant third is YouTube.
Most podcasters are lucky to get

493
00:25:33,282 --> 00:25:35,545
four
to 5% of their audience
consumption.

494
00:25:35,545 --> 00:25:39,136
Not saying that
overall
podcasting might not get more

495
00:25:39,136 --> 00:25:42,412
consumption in YouTube.

What I'm saying is when you take

496
00:25:42,471 --> 00:25:45,779
the top shows out, the top 1%

for the 99% of podcasters.

497
00:25:45,839 --> 00:25:49,502
People start, there's actually

more consumption of podcasts in

498
00:25:49,561 --> 00:25:52,870
Apple Podcasts, and then

Spotify, than there is YouTube.

499
00:25:52,870 --> 00:25:54,156
Marc Ronick: Interesting,

interesting.

500
00:25:54,156 --> 00:25:56,630
Yeah, go ahead, Ralph.
Ralph Estep Jr.: Rob, do you


501
00:25:56,638 --> 00:25:58,990
think the biggest growth problem
in podcasting is discovery,


502
00:25:58,998 --> 00:26:00,714
content quality, is it
positioning?

503
00:26:00,714 --> 00:26:03,450
You mentioned
consistency, or
is it something else?

504
00:26:03,450 --> 00:26:05,610
What do you think the
biggest
growth problem is?

505
00:26:05,910 --> 00:26:08,790
Rob Walch: I don't believe

there's a discovery discovery

506
00:26:08,850 --> 00:26:11,274
problem in podcasting.
I believe
there's my podcast

507
00:26:11,274 --> 00:26:14,694
hasn't been discovered problem,
but that's
not a discovery

508
00:26:14,694 --> 00:26:17,610
problem.
I people that listen to podcasts

509
00:26:17,610 --> 00:26:21,205

don't complain that they can't
find podcasts, they can't find


510
00:26:21,213 --> 00:26:24,107
podcasts on their topic.
What they're happening is

511
00:26:24,107 --> 00:26:26,968
they're not
finding your
podcast on your topic, and

512
00:26:26,968 --> 00:26:29,090
that's when
podcasters go,
"There's a discoverability

513
00:26:29,090 --> 00:26:30,710
problem.
No,
that's a me problem,

514
00:26:30,710 --> 00:26:33,380
that's not a "we" problem.
And the "me"
problem again

515
00:26:33,380 --> 00:26:37,235
comes down to the title's wrong,
and they don't
have the clear

516
00:26:37,235 --> 00:26:40,297
title on their show.
And then it comes down to


517
00:26:40,305 --> 00:26:43,720
Apple, it's based on the title
of your show, what's in the


518
00:26:43,728 --> 00:26:46,820
author tag, and then sorted by
the total number of subscribers

519
00:26:46,820 --> 00:26:50,380
all time, so you have to make
sure that people are subscribing

520
00:26:50,380 --> 00:26:53,032

to your podcast, they're
hitting or following your

521
00:26:53,032 --> 00:26:55,670
podcast now,
they're hitting
the follow button in Apple

522
00:26:55,670 --> 00:26:59,191
Podcast, so you
have to make
sure your call to action is that

523
00:26:59,191 --> 00:27:01,948
so many times
people have the
wrong call to actions.

524
00:27:01,948 --> 00:27:03,819
It's like, rate and
review my
show.

525
00:27:03,819 --> 00:27:06,975
It's much better to say, hey,
make sure you
follow my show.

526
00:27:06,975 --> 00:27:09,300
If you followed it, then you can
rate and
review, but if you

527
00:27:09,300 --> 00:27:11,235
haven't followed, don't rate and
review.


528
00:27:11,243 --> 00:27:14,058
Follow.
Marc Ronick: Yeah, that makes a

529
00:27:14,058 --> 00:27:17,068
lot of sense.
So, the average podcaster fades

530
00:27:17,068 --> 00:27:21,752
pretty quickly
these days.
I've heard things anywhere from

531
00:27:21,752 --> 00:27:25,744
eight to like 20
something
episodes from your experience

532
00:27:25,744 --> 00:27:28,661
working with 1000s of

creators.

533
00:27:28,661 --> 00:27:32,980
What separates the people who
make it past that
wall from

534
00:27:32,980 --> 00:27:36,223
the ones who quit?
Rob Walch: Okay, so when I


535
00:27:36,231 --> 00:27:39,414
looked at this, I did find a
couple of clusters, and the late

536
00:27:39,414 --> 00:27:42,657

Todd Cochran found the same
data, he looked at it at


537
00:27:42,665 --> 00:27:45,357
Blueberry, and we compared
notes, and what we found was


538
00:27:45,365 --> 00:27:48,669
there was the group of pod
faders that typically pod faded

539
00:27:48,669 --> 00:27:52,347
out before episode five, and
this group was, wow, this is


540
00:27:52,355 --> 00:27:55,929
harder than I thought, this is
hard, this, I'm a blogger, and


541
00:27:55,937 --> 00:27:58,616
blogging is so much easier, and
I gotta do this extra work, and

542
00:27:58,616 --> 00:28:01,678
I could do this editing, and I
gotta do all this extra stuff,


543
00:28:01,686 --> 00:28:04,360
that group, or I can't find any
guests.

544
00:28:04,360 --> 00:28:06,269
I'm having a hard time
getting
guests on my show.

545
00:28:06,539 --> 00:28:10,799
Right, that group early on

underestimated the extra work

546
00:28:11,009 --> 00:28:14,126
takes to do a podcast.
The next
group is around

547
00:28:14,126 --> 00:28:16,761
episode 50, and when you looked
at the groups
around episode

548
00:28:16,761 --> 00:28:19,769
50, it was people that said I'm
going to commit to
this for a

549
00:28:19,769 --> 00:28:22,267
year, and they're doing one
episode a week, and
they got

550
00:28:22,267 --> 00:28:25,504
to that one year mark, and they
looked at their
numbers, and

551
00:28:25,504 --> 00:28:29,649
they weren't happy, and they got
out, and a lot of
the times

552
00:28:29,649 --> 00:28:33,211
people are getting out and
looking at their numbers,
and

553
00:28:33,211 --> 00:28:35,260
they don't understand, they
actually are successful.

554
00:28:35,260 --> 00:28:39,219
I've
had people come to me and
say, "Oh, I have 600 800

555
00:28:39,219 --> 00:28:42,477
downloads an
episode, and I
don't know what I'm doing wrong

556
00:28:42,477 --> 00:28:45,279
with my show,
and like one
guy, his show was about

557
00:28:45,279 --> 00:28:48,009
pneumatic valves.
I'm
like, what was your

558
00:28:48,009 --> 00:28:49,886
expectation for your audience
size?

559
00:28:49,886 --> 00:28:53,424
I'm an
engineer, and just
reading the description of your

560
00:28:53,424 --> 00:28:57,558
podcast is
putting me to, but
you got 600 people showing up

561
00:28:57,558 --> 00:29:00,999
every week to
listen to your
podcast, so I had to put it to

562
00:29:00,999 --> 00:29:04,336
him in this ex,
this example.
I said, "Do you ever go and talk

563
00:29:04,336 --> 00:29:06,303
at a
conference?
He said, "Yes, like how many

564
00:29:06,303 --> 00:29:08,129
people were in the
room?
He's like, "Maybe about 200.

565
00:29:08,129 --> 00:29:10,439
And I go, "Yeah, probably
half
of them were checking their

566
00:29:10,499 --> 00:29:12,514
email.
So I go, "You spent how
much

567
00:29:12,514 --> 00:29:15,271
money at your company to get you
to that conference to
speak?

568
00:29:15,271 --> 00:29:18,719
And I go, "And you have a weekly
show that that's six
times

569
00:29:18,719 --> 00:29:21,673
that probably active audience
that you had there, I
go,

570
00:29:21,673 --> 00:29:23,747
you're successful, you are not
unsuccessful.

571
00:29:23,747 --> 00:29:25,913
So, getting
your expectations
right.

572
00:29:25,913 --> 00:29:29,019
I think a lot of people pod fade
because
they just thought, oh,

573
00:29:29,019 --> 00:29:31,219
they were going to get millions
of
downloads.

574
00:29:31,219 --> 00:29:32,825
Nobody gets millions of
downloads.

575
00:29:32,825 --> 00:29:36,199
I had a major golf

manufacturer one time, and they

576
00:29:36,319 --> 00:29:38,839
were complaining that they're

only getting 45,000 downloads

577
00:29:38,929 --> 00:29:42,009
per episode, and I had explained

to them two are in the top 1%

578
00:29:42,459 --> 00:29:44,103
and they're like, 'What?
They're
like, 'What do you

579
00:29:44,103 --> 00:29:46,318
mean we're in the top 1%?
I go, 'Yeah.

580
00:29:46,318 --> 00:29:49,527
They're
like, 'Well, we have 5
million followers on Facebook.

581
00:29:49,527 --> 00:29:53,229
I go,
'Facebook followers do
not equal podcast listeners.

582
00:29:53,229 --> 00:29:56,661
I go, 'You
know, you had one
of the Paul brothers.

583
00:29:56,661 --> 00:30:00,078
I won't say which one.
60
million, he had six.

584
00:30:00,078 --> 00:30:04,193
Million YouTube subscribers and
social
media followers, and he

585
00:30:04,193 --> 00:30:07,565
was right at 3000 downloads an

episode.

586
00:30:07,565 --> 00:30:12,085
I go, followers in social media
do not translate to
listeners

587
00:30:12,085 --> 00:30:15,716
and podcasts.
Or now the new IAB can the new

588
00:30:15,716 --> 00:30:19,515
IAB
version spec is going to
say podcast consumers.

589
00:30:19,515 --> 00:30:23,119
We've changed
it from
listeners to podcast consumers.

590
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:25,914
Ralph Estep Jr.: Rob, I wanted

to go in the direction where

591
00:30:25,962 --> 00:30:27,365
you're going, because one of

the..

592
00:30:27,365 --> 00:30:30,523
I'm the money guy on the show.
One of the things I think
a

593
00:30:30,523 --> 00:30:33,372
lot of people fade is because of
monetization gap, and I think


594
00:30:33,380 --> 00:30:36,339
that because they buy into this
approach, there's so many of


595
00:30:36,347 --> 00:30:39,141
these coach hustlers out there
telling people they're going to

596
00:30:39,141 --> 00:30:40,826
make a million dollars by
podcasting.

597
00:30:40,826 --> 00:30:43,684
Where do you think
that
podcasters get misled in that,

598
00:30:43,684 --> 00:30:46,382
and do you think that's

triggering some of this pod fate

599
00:30:46,430 --> 00:30:48,152
as well?
Because I hear you
saying

600
00:30:48,152 --> 00:30:50,413
they're not happy with the
downloads, but that's that


601
00:30:50,421 --> 00:30:53,206
race to the bottom I talk about
all the time of CPM.

602
00:30:53,206 --> 00:30:55,786
If you want
to make three
cents a month, get a big

603
00:30:55,786 --> 00:30:58,160
audience, but it's not
really
where the money is, Rob.

604
00:30:58,450 --> 00:31:00,610
Rob Walch: Most people that make

a lot of money in podcasting

605
00:31:00,700 --> 00:31:04,129
make it from promoting a product

or service, or themselves as

606
00:31:04,129 --> 00:31:08,700
an expert on some topic.
You know,
if you're using the

607
00:31:08,700 --> 00:31:11,292
podcast, Creator Joe's uses the
podcast
to promote their

608
00:31:11,292 --> 00:31:13,760
product and service.
They never take ads on
their

609
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:15,966
podcast.
Ebay used to have a really great

610
00:31:15,966 --> 00:31:18,524
podcast, and it
was for
interacting with the audience.

611
00:31:18,524 --> 00:31:20,810
It was never about

monetization, but they had good

612
00:31:20,870 --> 00:31:25,430
size audience and people that

used the podcast to help promote

613
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:28,580
their webinars, promote their

book, comedians, right.

614
00:31:28,580 --> 00:31:31,456
Why did a lot of comedians get
into
podcasting?

615
00:31:31,456 --> 00:31:35,525
They got into it because they
were able to get
not only

616
00:31:35,525 --> 00:31:37,994
download numbers and interact
with their audience on
a

617
00:31:37,994 --> 00:31:40,487
regular basis, but they could
then take the stats and say,


618
00:31:40,495 --> 00:31:43,210
look to the guy at the Comedy
Store in St.

619
00:31:43,210 --> 00:31:45,530
Louis, I get 250
downloads
from the St.

620
00:31:45,530 --> 00:31:47,826
Louis DMA.
You should book me.

621
00:31:47,826 --> 00:31:52,516
And so
you know, people have
used the podcast not from the

622
00:31:52,516 --> 00:31:55,981
generating
revenue from CPMs,
but from generating revenue from

623
00:31:55,981 --> 00:32:00,000
their
own product or service.
Now that's not to say there are

624
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:02,454
podcasts that are making, you
know, they're making some good


625
00:32:02,462 --> 00:32:04,005
money.
I mean, obviously you got people

626
00:32:04,005 --> 00:32:07,590
like Joe Rogan and others
are
making huge money and huge bank,

627
00:32:07,590 --> 00:32:09,900
and you know, Tim Ferriss
and
others.

628
00:32:09,900 --> 00:32:13,130
So there is definitely a place
to make money
on the CPM side,

629
00:32:13,130 --> 00:32:15,335
and there's more opportunities
coming up on
that.

630
00:32:15,335 --> 00:32:18,357
But you have to ask yourself,
why are you getting
into it?

631
00:32:18,357 --> 00:32:21,510
And if you don't have a product
or service to market,
then you

632
00:32:21,510 --> 00:32:24,638
are getting in, and you want to
monetize, then you do
have to

633
00:32:24,638 --> 00:32:28,784
look at what are my options on
direct monitor,
called direct

634
00:32:28,784 --> 00:32:31,985
monetization of your podcast,
and that comes
down to

635
00:32:31,985 --> 00:32:33,446
advertising and premium
offerings.

636
00:32:33,446 --> 00:32:38,142
So, do you think,
speaking of
that advertising, do you think

637
00:32:38,142 --> 00:32:41,350
that smaller shows are

focusing too much on

638
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:43,480
sponsorships, or maybe not

enough.

639
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:47,332
If your primary goal is to
monetize, you need to look at


640
00:32:47,340 --> 00:32:50,685
your format of your show.
You need to understand that you

641
00:32:50,685 --> 00:32:52,810
have
to want to have
advertisers.

642
00:32:53,830 --> 00:32:56,050
There's so many people I've

worked with over the years that

643
00:32:56,200 --> 00:33:00,100
want advertising dollars, but

don't want advertisers, and you

644
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:03,335
can't - the two kind of go hand
in hand.

645
00:33:03,335 --> 00:33:06,910
So, I've heard both up there,
and if they go to read
the ad

646
00:33:06,910 --> 00:33:09,800
read, and it's reading it in a
mono voice, right?

647
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:13,209
And you
can hear the literally
hear the paper crinkling as

648
00:33:13,209 --> 00:33:16,872
they're
reading the ad, and
that that's not good for the

649
00:33:16,872 --> 00:33:18,450
advertiser.

It's not good for you as the

650
00:33:18,570 --> 00:33:20,714
podcaster.
So, if you do want to


651
00:33:20,722 --> 00:33:23,735
monetize, go in full force.
Now, you also need to understand

652
00:33:23,735 --> 00:33:26,578
you
have to be at a certain
level to have host read ads.

653
00:33:26,578 --> 00:33:29,609
If you want
to go out to some
of the bigger agencies, some of

654
00:33:29,609 --> 00:33:32,771
them agencies
now say 50,000
downloads, and some are 20,000

655
00:33:32,771 --> 00:33:35,357
as minimum per
episode.
You know, Captivate, we're

656
00:33:35,357 --> 00:33:38,486
launching a marketplace
that
will allow you any podcaster at

657
00:33:38,486 --> 00:33:42,109
any size to
interact with
advertisers and bring in some

658
00:33:42,109 --> 00:33:45,400
host trade, and
then also have
programmatic ads, and that's the

659
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:47,010
other thing.
If
you do advertising, you

660
00:33:47,010 --> 00:33:50,772
have to do both.
You have to have both
host

661
00:33:50,772 --> 00:33:54,700
read and CPM model.
DR: Can you break that down a


662
00:33:54,708 --> 00:33:56,398
little bit?
What is the marketplace that

663
00:33:56,398 --> 00:33:59,432
you're talking
about?
Rob Walch: So, Captivate is


664
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:01,358
launching.
We announced this last month

665
00:34:01,358 --> 00:34:03,888
that we're launching
a
marketplace at Captivate, where

666
00:34:03,888 --> 00:34:07,290
I allow podcasters to
present
their podcast out, and then

667
00:34:07,290 --> 00:34:09,449
advertisers come in and
find
their podcast, and by

668
00:34:09,659 --> 00:34:12,225
advertisers we mean other, it

could be other podcasters.

669
00:34:12,225 --> 00:34:14,880
I think a lot of the people are
going to be buying ads, you

670
00:34:14,909 --> 00:34:17,159
know, if you want to look at

promoting your show, the really,

671
00:34:17,219 --> 00:34:20,719
the honestly, the only way I've
seen that, really, there's two

672
00:34:20,900 --> 00:34:23,929
things I'd say, where if you

spent your money on work to help

673
00:34:23,989 --> 00:34:27,199
promote your podcast, it's

spending your money running ads

674
00:34:27,350 --> 00:34:32,600
on other podcasts or doing a

banner ad on Overcast or Cast

675
00:34:32,659 --> 00:34:36,380
Box, because those are

podcast-specific apps, so having

676
00:34:36,409 --> 00:34:40,340
your promo run on another

podcast in your genre or similar

677
00:34:40,429 --> 00:34:43,108
demos is a great way to get word

out.

678
00:34:43,108 --> 00:34:46,456
If you come into this space and
you don't know anyone, you


679
00:34:46,464 --> 00:34:49,737
haven't started cross promoting,
you haven't taught a tribe of


680
00:34:49,746 --> 00:34:52,108
other podcasters.
So this marketplace will allow

681
00:34:52,108 --> 00:34:55,402
some
podcasters to be up there
and be discovered by other

682
00:34:55,402 --> 00:34:58,099
podcasters
and advertisers.
So that's one thing, and then

683
00:34:58,099 --> 00:34:59,715
part of that
marketplace will
also be programmatic.

684
00:34:59,715 --> 00:35:02,898
Ads, so you could
turn on,
turn on immediately to get start

685
00:35:02,898 --> 00:35:05,280
getting advertising
for
programmatic ads for your show.

686
00:35:06,180 --> 00:35:08,610
Marc Ronick: Let's talk about

that for a second, because you

687
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:12,420
know, you with Captivate and Dax

US, there's been a lot of

688
00:35:12,450 --> 00:35:15,750
conversation around making

monetization more accessible for

689
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:20,190
creators, so for an independent
podcaster who's never touched

690
00:35:20,820 --> 00:35:24,770
pragmatic advertising before,

what does that actually mean in

691
00:35:24,890 --> 00:35:28,085
plain English?
Rob Walch: So, programmatic ads

692
00:35:28,085 --> 00:35:31,560
are pre-produced ads that you
would typically hear on radio,


693
00:35:31,568 --> 00:35:35,930
and you are going to accept
certain categories or block


694
00:35:35,938 --> 00:35:39,975
certain IEB categories, but
you're not getting a chance to


695
00:35:39,983 --> 00:35:43,570
accept a specific advertiser, so
you may say yes to the


696
00:35:43,578 --> 00:35:47,026
automotive category, but you
don't have an option to say I


697
00:35:47,034 --> 00:35:50,890
want Tesla and Rivian, but I
don't want any gas cars, right?

698
00:35:50,890 --> 00:35:53,200

You don't, or vice versa, I want

699
00:35:53,290 --> 00:35:57,070
gas, I want Toyota, and I want

Ford, but I don't want Tesla or

700
00:35:57,100 --> 00:35:58,770
Rivian.
You don't have that
option,

701
00:35:58,770 --> 00:36:02,128
you, when you pick a category,
you're just, you're
gonna get

702
00:36:02,128 --> 00:36:05,520
the ads, like I had one person
that freaked out
because they

703
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:08,730
had said yes to the food
category and got a
McDonald's

704
00:36:08,730 --> 00:36:13,138
ad, and I'm like, okay, you said
yes to food, the
number one

705
00:36:13,138 --> 00:36:17,440
advertiser in food in the world
is, oh, McDonald's, so
shocker

706
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:21,160
that McDonald's ad shut up on
your show, so you have to
have

707
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:24,681
a little bit more talent, but
you know, I was talking with


708
00:36:24,689 --> 00:36:28,286
Mike Rowe, and he was kind of,
oh, I don't know if I want to


709
00:36:28,294 --> 00:36:31,045
have these ads, and I said,
well, I watched Dirty Jobs on


710
00:36:31,053 --> 00:36:33,974
Discovery Channel, and I saw
Hyundai commercial, did you


711
00:36:33,982 --> 00:36:36,719
endorse that?
He's like, no, no, same thing on

712
00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:39,496
the podcast,
people are going
to understand that you're not

713
00:36:39,496 --> 00:36:42,366
endorsing it
when it's a
pre-produced ad, so you, you

714
00:36:42,366 --> 00:36:45,240
know, that he was like,
"Oh,
that clicked in his head, and

715
00:36:45,240 --> 00:36:47,530
then he said, "Yeah, okay,

I'll do, I'll do programmatic.

716
00:36:48,190 --> 00:36:51,400
So you have to be a little bit

more accepting of the fact that

717
00:36:51,430 --> 00:36:55,030
there are going to be some ads

in there from maybe a product or

718
00:36:55,060 --> 00:36:57,218
service that you're not exactly
excited with.

719
00:36:57,218 --> 00:37:00,891
Now you can block categories in
Captivate, will
allow you to

720
00:37:00,891 --> 00:37:03,831
lock down the individual
categories, so you
can get rid

721
00:37:03,831 --> 00:37:07,344
of the gambling and get rid of
the lottery, you can
get rid

722
00:37:07,344 --> 00:37:10,236
of, you know, there are so many
weird categories in
there.

723
00:37:10,236 --> 00:37:13,395
There's been a, there's a,
there's a Wiccan category in


724
00:37:13,403 --> 00:37:15,645
there.
Yes, that's this one's for

725
00:37:15,645 --> 00:37:18,075
psychics.
You can block the
psychics

726
00:37:18,075 --> 00:37:21,568
category, so yes, you'll have
that option to get
down and

727
00:37:21,568 --> 00:37:24,395
granular and say no, I don't
want psychics or Wiccans
on my

728
00:37:24,395 --> 00:37:27,422
podcast, or maybe you do, maybe,
maybe you want to block
all

729
00:37:27,422 --> 00:37:30,390
the other religious ones, but
leave the Wiccan one, and so


730
00:37:30,398 --> 00:37:33,189
you have that option.
Marc Ronick: Yeah, Ralph, go

731
00:37:33,189 --> 00:37:35,231
ahead, Ralph Estep Jr.: Rob.
We're
working with independent

732
00:37:35,283 --> 00:37:38,302
do-it-yourself podcasters, so

that kind of lesson is super

733
00:37:38,354 --> 00:37:40,030
valuable.
Now, Rob, there's two
other

734
00:37:40,030 --> 00:37:43,160
topics I want to talk about
today, and I'm going to
let

735
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:46,110
you pick where we go here,
because I know you have feelings

736
00:37:46,110 --> 00:37:48,850

on both of these.
I'm a Captivate customer, and a

737
00:37:48,850 --> 00:37:52,188
couple
months ago, when you
started the HLS, you and LC did

738
00:37:52,188 --> 00:37:55,304
the webinar,
and I have to be
honest with you, man, I felt

739
00:37:55,304 --> 00:37:58,255
like you were
dragging a stone
uphill with this HLS video.

740
00:37:58,255 --> 00:38:01,248
Now, maybe that
wasn't your
intention, but I want to talk

741
00:38:01,248 --> 00:38:03,255
about that, and I
want to talk
about AI.

742
00:38:03,255 --> 00:38:06,451
Do you want to talk about HLS
video
first, or video and

743
00:38:06,451 --> 00:38:07,509
podcast?
Rob Walch: Absolutely.

744
00:38:07,509 --> 00:38:10,558
So, yeah,
we'll talk about,
and I had, I'd heard from a

745
00:38:10,558 --> 00:38:13,670
couple people,
like, well, you
know, I'm like, it's new-ish on

746
00:38:13,670 --> 00:38:17,172
the video side,
and what I
wanted to tell people was just

747
00:38:17,172 --> 00:38:20,705
because Apple now has
this new
way to have video and podcasting

748
00:38:20,705 --> 00:38:22,834
doesn't mean you need
to do
this.

749
00:38:22,834 --> 00:38:26,110
Too many people are like,
everybody needs to do
video,

750
00:38:26,110 --> 00:38:29,402
and I'm like, if you're not
comfortable doing video,
don't

751
00:38:29,402 --> 00:38:32,645
do video.
I mean, if you don't feel good

752
00:38:32,645 --> 00:38:35,082
about it, it's
not your cup of
tea.

753
00:38:35,082 --> 00:38:38,315
There's no reason to, my,
there's still
more time in the

754
00:38:38,315 --> 00:38:42,187
day to consume audio than any
other form of
media, and if

755
00:38:42,187 --> 00:38:45,100
you are someone that's
struggling to get your
show

756
00:38:45,100 --> 00:38:48,025
out as it is now, and you're
almost at the point where
you

757
00:38:48,025 --> 00:38:51,028
start feeling like it's time to
make the donuts, adding video


758
00:38:51,036 --> 00:38:54,895
to your workload is not going to
be conducive to a long-term


759
00:38:54,903 --> 00:38:58,305
relationship with you and your
pod, your audience, you are


760
00:38:58,313 --> 00:39:02,550
going to pod fade.
So my thing was I didn't want to

761
00:39:02,550 --> 00:39:05,685
see people
jump into audio to
video when they're really happy

762
00:39:05,685 --> 00:39:08,208
doing
audio, and they don't
want to do video, but they're

763
00:39:08,208 --> 00:39:11,340
jumping in
because it's the
thing, the next big shiny thing,

764
00:39:11,340 --> 00:39:16,240
just like
Second Life was, or
live streaming audio was way

765
00:39:16,240 --> 00:39:20,262
back
when, and just stick with
what your audience likes.

766
00:39:20,262 --> 00:39:23,264
I mean,
there are certain
audiences that just want audio,

767
00:39:23,264 --> 00:39:26,626
and they have -
they're
driving in the car, they're not

768
00:39:26,626 --> 00:39:30,016
gonna watch video,
and on top
of that, Apple supports video

769
00:39:30,016 --> 00:39:34,673
for 20 years, and
when people
had the option to put both audio

770
00:39:34,673 --> 00:39:39,358
and video up for
a podcast to
an RSS feeds into YouTube into

771
00:39:39,358 --> 00:39:43,138
Apple Podcasts over
the years,
20 to one, the audience chose

772
00:39:43,138 --> 00:39:47,704
audio, so it
wasn't like
Apple's audio audience has been

773
00:39:47,704 --> 00:39:51,751
clamoring
video when they had
the option, they didn't choose

774
00:39:51,751 --> 00:39:53,713
it.
The
reality is YouTube won

775
00:39:53,713 --> 00:39:58,824
video, and if you want to put
video and
do video.

776
00:39:58,824 --> 00:40:03,785
Mind put it up and do it, do the
HLS, go to Spotify,
and have

777
00:40:03,785 --> 00:40:07,586
it there, and have it in
YouTube, but if you're just
an

778
00:40:07,586 --> 00:40:11,045
audio person, stick with audio,
and that was what I was
trying

779
00:40:11,045 --> 00:40:12,579
to get.
So many people were like, oh,

780
00:40:12,579 --> 00:40:15,126
you got to do it,
you got to
do it, you got to do it, and

781
00:40:15,126 --> 00:40:18,120
I've always been one
that
said, you do what you feel

782
00:40:18,210 --> 00:40:21,620
comfortable doing, not because

someone, not because the not

783
00:40:21,710 --> 00:40:24,590
because this guru or that girl

said video is the next big

784
00:40:24,770 --> 00:40:27,290
thing, they've been saying video

is the next big thing for 20

785
00:40:27,350 --> 00:40:30,308
years.
All right, so now that
Apple

786
00:40:30,308 --> 00:40:34,785
has HS in there, you don't even
know, honestly, if it is
the

787
00:40:34,785 --> 00:40:37,922
next big thing, because the way
Apple does is you get file,


788
00:40:37,930 --> 00:40:40,730
you upload a video file, they
demux it, they got an audio


789
00:40:40,738 --> 00:40:43,540
version, and then the video
without the audio, the audio


790
00:40:43,548 --> 00:40:46,282
part of it gets automatically
downloaded, and then when


791
00:40:46,290 --> 00:40:49,648
someone goes in on the iPhone
and hits play, it automatically,

792
00:40:49,648 --> 00:40:52,612

if in there, will start
pulling video over.

793
00:40:52,612 --> 00:40:55,069
Maybe they don't
want the
video, right?

794
00:40:55,069 --> 00:40:59,180
Let's see, at the end of the
day, if
the consumers really

795
00:40:59,180 --> 00:41:03,139
did choose, were there podcasts
that went
into video and that

796
00:41:03,139 --> 00:41:05,832
audience grew, you know, did
this happen?


797
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:09,340
It cause anybody's audiences to
grow your audience to shrink,


798
00:41:09,348 --> 00:41:13,345
but if you're on the fence,
wait, wait, get some data,


799
00:41:13,353 --> 00:41:15,480
that's what I was trying to
point to.

800
00:41:16,230 --> 00:41:18,120
Marc Ronick: Sid, I'm sorry, not

Sid, I was reading something

801
00:41:18,180 --> 00:41:22,221
that somebody asked, Sid Ralph,
you added video recently.

802
00:41:22,221 --> 00:41:26,060
You did the Apple video thing

recently, and it may be way too

803
00:41:26,180 --> 00:41:28,580
soon to ask, but are you

noticing anything different as

804
00:41:28,610 --> 00:41:30,995
far as your numbers go?
Ralph Estep Jr.: I am.

805
00:41:30,995 --> 00:41:33,750
Yes, and
I'm a Captivate
customer, Rob, and I was one of

806
00:41:33,750 --> 00:41:34,870
the early, you
know,
believers.

807
00:41:34,870 --> 00:41:37,025
We still have one show, we can't
get it to
work with.

808
00:41:37,025 --> 00:41:38,797
I've been working with Danny,
we've been, we've
been beating

809
00:41:38,797 --> 00:41:41,192
our heads for about six weeks on
this, but yeah,
I've seen a

810
00:41:41,192 --> 00:41:42,598
little bit of an uptake,
actually.

811
00:41:42,598 --> 00:41:46,159
Mark, and part
of that is
because I've been doing video

812
00:41:46,159 --> 00:41:47,762
all along and
releasing it on
YouTube.

813
00:41:47,762 --> 00:41:50,738
So, for me, and I've got a team
that
helps me on the

814
00:41:50,738 --> 00:41:54,145
production side, so for me it
wasn't any added
work, because

815
00:41:54,145 --> 00:41:57,282
I was already doing video.
Rob, one of the
follow-ups I

816
00:41:57,282 --> 00:42:01,425
have for that is this whole HLS
technology is
changing the way

817
00:42:01,425 --> 00:42:04,644
things are done as well, and you
mentioned that
you're one of

818
00:42:04,644 --> 00:42:07,235
those tech guys.
How do you feel about that?


819
00:42:07,243 --> 00:42:10,020
Because this is changing things
as well, these APIs going into


820
00:42:10,028 --> 00:42:13,020
Sam Sethi, and I had a
conversation about this last


821
00:42:13,028 --> 00:42:15,435
week on Facebook Messenger.
You know, what do you think

822
00:42:15,435 --> 00:42:16,518
about
that?
Because that's part of this

823
00:42:16,518 --> 00:42:19,020
that's going on too.
Rob Walch: Yes, and then we're


824
00:42:19,028 --> 00:42:21,054
also going to make the
alternative tag available, so


825
00:42:21,062 --> 00:42:22,954
that the video be available
there.

826
00:42:22,954 --> 00:42:26,800
The issue is, you know,
Apple
chose to go with the API route.

827
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:30,520
I'm not a, I'm an RSS
purist,
so I would have liked to have

828
00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:34,287
just seen it as an
alternative
tag and gone that way.

829
00:42:34,287 --> 00:42:37,004
I think, you know, Sam will

probably say the same thing.

830
00:42:37,004 --> 00:42:40,124
A key would have won.
Hey, why do
we have to have it

831
00:42:40,124 --> 00:42:42,241
with an API call?
You know, so I would have


832
00:42:42,249 --> 00:42:45,298
liked to have seen it that way,
because then all the other apps

833
00:42:45,298 --> 00:42:49,138
out there could have adopted it
and then had that option to pull

834
00:42:49,138 --> 00:42:52,356

in the video if they weren't
currently supporting video, so


835
00:42:52,364 --> 00:42:56,722
not the way I mean I understand
why Apple's doing it, and you


836
00:42:56,730 --> 00:42:59,765
know, again, Apple makes
decisions based on what's best


837
00:42:59,773 --> 00:43:02,865
for the consumer, not what's
best for the podcaster, and


838
00:43:02,873 --> 00:43:05,545
they're always going to make
their decisions on what's best


839
00:43:05,553 --> 00:43:08,340
for the consumer, so they had
their reasons, and I understand

840
00:43:08,340 --> 00:43:11,508
them, but as on the podcaster
side of things, I would prefer


841
00:43:11,516 --> 00:43:16,229
to have seen it not be via API.
Marc Ronick: I think Sid has a


842
00:43:16,237 --> 00:43:18,278
question.
Sid, over on Clubhouse, Sid, did

843
00:43:18,278 --> 00:43:22,465
you want to
ask?
Sid Meadows: Yeah, good morning

844
00:43:22,465 --> 00:43:25,406
everybody.
So I accidentally was watching a

845
00:43:25,406 --> 00:43:27,980
show that had video.

I didn't realize it had video,

846
00:43:28,070 --> 00:43:31,430
and I tell I looked out on my

phone, and when I was watching

847
00:43:31,490 --> 00:43:35,148
and listening to it, there was a

very noticeable lag between

848
00:43:35,148 --> 00:43:38,838
the audio and the video, and it
felt
like I, because on

849
00:43:38,838 --> 00:43:41,698
YouTube, when you're watching,
you feel like
you're watching

850
00:43:41,698 --> 00:43:45,535
a video that has audio in it,
and then I was
like, the video

851
00:43:45,535 --> 00:43:49,516
is talking to you, right?
This to me felt like
it was an

852
00:43:49,516 --> 00:43:52,930
audio that I was listening to
that they just
popped up a

853
00:43:52,930 --> 00:43:56,034
video, and then they watched
another one, and so the
first

854
00:43:56,034 --> 00:43:59,475
lag was probably three seconds.
The second lag time I
watched

855
00:43:59,475 --> 00:44:02,660
it was about one second.
Then I watched the same show the

856
00:44:02,660 --> 00:44:05,008

other day, and I did not
notice the lag.

857
00:44:05,008 --> 00:44:07,620
Is this something
that's
happening within Apple?

858
00:44:08,250 --> 00:44:10,200
Is it our idea what the cause of

this is?

859
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:13,368
But it certainly did not create
the best user
experience from

860
00:44:13,368 --> 00:44:15,120
watching and listening at the
same time.

861
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:18,359
Rob Walch: So, from a technical
point of view, what's happening

862
00:44:18,415 --> 00:44:21,559
is there literally are two

different files, and Apple is

863
00:44:21,615 --> 00:44:24,909
demuxing, so basically you have
the video file and you demux

864
00:44:24,909 --> 00:44:28,444
it, and they have now you have
an
audio file, so you have a

865
00:44:28,444 --> 00:44:31,643
video with no audio, and then
you have
the audio file, and

866
00:44:31,643 --> 00:44:34,402
then the video is supposed to
sync to the
audio.

867
00:44:34,402 --> 00:44:36,868
The audio file is still being
downloaded automatically.


868
00:44:36,876 --> 00:44:41,299
If you are a consumer of
podcasts and have it set up to


869
00:44:41,307 --> 00:44:43,630
automatically download, the
audio gets automatically


870
00:44:43,638 --> 00:44:47,132
downloaded, then when someone
hits play, then the video is


871
00:44:47,140 --> 00:44:50,187
supposed to sync up, and they're
supposed to be in sync.

872
00:44:50,187 --> 00:44:53,290
But when
you have two files
and something's supposed to be

873
00:44:53,290 --> 00:44:56,045
in
sync, doesn't mean 100%
will be in sync.

874
00:44:56,045 --> 00:44:59,172
I had not heard reports
of
that, but I am not surprised.

875
00:44:59,228 --> 00:45:02,709
Of that, giving that it is two

different files, and maybe that

876
00:45:02,765 --> 00:45:06,134
was something with an issue, and

you said you have, yeah, I

877
00:45:06,134 --> 00:45:09,463
would be interested to find out
which
podcast it was, and take

878
00:45:09,463 --> 00:45:12,460
a look at it, but you know Sid
Meadows: it was happy to
tell

879
00:45:12,460 --> 00:45:14,799
you, it was one of your
competitors is Buzz Cast,


880
00:45:14,807 --> 00:45:18,511
because I'm a Buzz, I'm a Buzz
Prom user, so I listened to


881
00:45:18,519 --> 00:45:21,677
their podcast, and but it makes
sense now, because I still


882
00:45:21,685 --> 00:45:25,254
learning about all this, I did
not realize that it was two


883
00:45:25,262 --> 00:45:28,295
separate files syncing up with
each other, where YouTube is


884
00:45:28,303 --> 00:45:31,843
just one file that you upload,
so it makes sense why it's


885
00:45:31,851 --> 00:45:34,128
happening.
But I watched one from this week

886
00:45:34,128 --> 00:45:37,342
and it did not
happen, so the
sync obviously has gotten

887
00:45:37,342 --> 00:45:38,887
better.
Rob Walch: Yeah, and I don't


888
00:45:38,895 --> 00:45:41,289
think it's an issue with the
hosting platforms, because it's

889
00:45:41,289 --> 00:45:45,027
supposed to be where the two
files are synced up by with


890
00:45:45,035 --> 00:45:47,589
Apple Podcast.
So, I think if there's an issue

891
00:45:47,589 --> 00:45:50,645
on the sync, I
think it would
be more of the client playback

892
00:45:50,645 --> 00:45:54,105
issue than the
posting.
So, I don't want to, I don't

893
00:45:54,105 --> 00:45:55,485
think Buzzsprout did
anything
wrong.

894
00:45:55,485 --> 00:45:58,698
I just think it might have been
a glitch in the
playback on

895
00:45:58,698 --> 00:46:00,802
the client side.
Ralph Estep Jr.: Rob, I wanted


896
00:46:00,810 --> 00:46:02,648
to ask you a question.
Dave Campbell, in our audience,

897
00:46:02,648 --> 00:46:05,114
asked.
He asked us to ask you about the

898
00:46:05,114 --> 00:46:07,918
discrepancy between
Apple
listen numbers and hosting site

899
00:46:07,918 --> 00:46:10,296
analytics.
So, are you
aware of what he's

900
00:46:10,296 --> 00:46:12,180
talking about there, and can you
help us out
with that?

901
00:46:12,870 --> 00:46:15,540
Rob Walch: Well, if you look at
the play number in Apple

902
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:17,508
Podcasts, here's what a play is.



903
00:46:17,516 --> 00:46:21,925
If you do this, play, pause,
play, pause, play, pause, that


904
00:46:21,933 --> 00:46:26,285
that fast in any podcast hosting
company, that would be zero,


905
00:46:26,293 --> 00:46:29,855
because you haven't gotten a
minute's worth of content in


906
00:46:29,863 --> 00:46:33,072
Apple, that is three Marc
Ronick: three seconds, Rob

907
00:46:33,072 --> 00:46:35,158
Walch: three plays, Marc Ronick:
three, that will
show up Rob

908
00:46:35,158 --> 00:46:39,030
Walch: as three plays in
your
stats, in Apple Podcast, in any

909
00:46:39,030 --> 00:46:42,130
hosting company, a minute's

worth of content has not been

910
00:46:42,190 --> 00:46:45,100
delivered, so you know anybody

in the IEP, anybody that's

911
00:46:45,730 --> 00:46:48,520
filtering for the IEB, it's at

least one minute of content's

912
00:46:48,610 --> 00:46:52,660
been delivered in, filtered over

a 24 hour window for unique IP

913
00:46:52,780 --> 00:46:55,900
address and user agent combo in
any podcast hosting company,

914
00:46:56,020 --> 00:46:59,410
even if you did play and you

waited for a minute, pause, and

915
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:01,934
then play, and then pause, and

then play, and then pause.

916
00:47:01,934 --> 00:47:04,236
It still be one.
The best case, it
would be

917
00:47:04,236 --> 00:47:06,030
one, right?
That would be it.

918
00:47:06,030 --> 00:47:10,080
But in Apple play, pause,

pause, play, pause, three,

919
00:47:10,650 --> 00:47:14,507
right.
So that's the issue with
the

920
00:47:14,507 --> 00:47:19,172
Apple analytics, are always
going to show the play is higher

921
00:47:19,172 --> 00:47:20,887

than that.
So you can't.

922
00:47:20,887 --> 00:47:25,220
I always tell people, don't look

at Apple stats for magnitude,

923
00:47:25,370 --> 00:47:27,956
look at Apple stats for trends.


924
00:47:27,964 --> 00:47:30,515
Where are people consuming your
episodes?

925
00:47:30,515 --> 00:47:34,454
I mean, Apple stats,
the
consumption information, some of

926
00:47:34,454 --> 00:47:36,834
the most valuable
information
podcasters never look at.

927
00:47:36,834 --> 00:47:39,848
If you go to Apple
Podcasts
and you look at where in your

928
00:47:39,848 --> 00:47:41,950
episodes you're looking,
you
should be looking for two

929
00:47:42,100 --> 00:47:44,350
things.
Where in your episode
people

930
00:47:44,350 --> 00:47:47,572
are not leaving?
I go 15 minutes without leaving.

931
00:47:47,572 --> 00:47:50,061
There's
no drop off in
percentage of listeners.

932
00:47:50,061 --> 00:47:54,510
What did you say in
those 15
minutes that captivated all of

933
00:47:54,510 --> 00:47:56,152
your audience?
Because
whatever it was, you

934
00:47:56,152 --> 00:47:59,260
want to capture that lightning
in a
bottle and repeat.

935
00:47:59,260 --> 00:48:02,000
And then where do you see the
drop offs?


936
00:48:02,008 --> 00:48:05,025
Where are people dropping off?
Where is the percentage going


937
00:48:05,033 --> 00:48:08,745
from 50% to 40% in two minutes?
What happened in that two


938
00:48:08,753 --> 00:48:10,930
minutes?
What did you talk about that

939
00:48:10,930 --> 00:48:14,823
drove 10% or 20% in that
case
of the listening audience away

940
00:48:14,823 --> 00:48:17,546
from your show?
Right, what
was it that caused

941
00:48:17,546 --> 00:48:19,375
that?
And, oh, by the way, you're

942
00:48:19,375 --> 00:48:22,820
always
going to have big drop
off in the first few minutes of

943
00:48:22,820 --> 00:48:25,880
your
podcast, so ultimately
when you look at most of these


944
00:48:25,888 --> 00:48:28,250
consumption stats, you want to
look basically starting about


945
00:48:28,258 --> 00:48:31,534
five minutes in to five minutes
left and look at that group in


946
00:48:31,542 --> 00:48:33,173
there.
How much of a drop off do you

947
00:48:33,173 --> 00:48:34,996
have from the five minute in

to five minutes left?

948
00:48:34,996 --> 00:48:38,650
If you have an hour long
podcast, you
know how much

949
00:48:38,650 --> 00:48:41,734
that dropping overall overall,
because that's
your real

950
00:48:41,734 --> 00:48:44,590
audience, about five minutes in
on the consumption
side.

951
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:46,791
Ralph Estep Jr.: Rob, I have a

follow-up for you, because while

952
00:48:46,831 --> 00:48:49,338
you're talking about this AMP,

you know what I'm talking about.

953
00:48:49,378 --> 00:48:51,727
We're talking about these new

AMP statistics, these new AMP

954
00:48:51,767 --> 00:48:53,333
agreements.
Do you think that's
something

955
00:48:53,333 --> 00:48:55,613
that the industry should
embrace, and do you think


956
00:48:55,621 --> 00:48:57,651
that's something Apple would
embrace, because that would


957
00:48:57,659 --> 00:48:59,530
solve that play problem you're
talking about.

958
00:48:59,530 --> 00:49:01,475
Rob Walch: Okay so AMP is

supposed to be about

959
00:49:01,531 --> 00:49:04,811
consumption, that was what they
were supposed to be talking

960
00:49:04,867 --> 00:49:06,803
about.
Now they also talked
about,

961
00:49:06,803 --> 00:49:10,270
well, downloads of, you know, 30
seconds, or their play
number

962
00:49:10,270 --> 00:49:13,837
of 30 seconds, versus that they
should have honestly
put it at

963
00:49:13,837 --> 00:49:16,986
one minute, just like the IEB.
I don't know,
understand why

964
00:49:16,986 --> 00:49:20,383
in the world they're trying to
change that
number from a

965
00:49:20,383 --> 00:49:22,963
minute 30 seconds.
If they're saying, 'Hey, the


966
00:49:22,971 --> 00:49:26,861
whole reason we're coming in
here is to be more friendly to


967
00:49:26,869 --> 00:49:28,550
advertisers, their service,
their ideas.

968
00:49:28,550 --> 00:49:31,218
Hey, we're going to
be
friendly to advertisers.

969
00:49:31,274 --> 00:49:34,609
Well, copy it from a minute to

30 seconds is not friendly to

970
00:49:34,665 --> 00:49:36,767
advertisers.
That inflates the
numbers, so

971
00:49:36,767 --> 00:49:39,016
go.
They should have gotten to a

972
00:49:39,016 --> 00:49:40,864
minute.
I think
that's a mistake that

973
00:49:40,864 --> 00:49:44,578
the amp group made looking at it
now, is
there a much of a

974
00:49:44,578 --> 00:49:46,332
difference between 30 seconds
and 60?

975
00:49:46,332 --> 00:49:49,811
No,
but and some people have
looked at that already, and you

976
00:49:49,811 --> 00:49:53,485
know
James had some numbers on
that, but the point is there was

977
00:49:53,485 --> 00:49:56,549
a
difference, it wasn't big,
but there was a difference, and

978
00:49:56,549 --> 00:50:00,230
why
would you drop it from a
minute, which is then the IAB

979
00:50:00,230 --> 00:50:03,025
standard
all along, now that
some people are saying.

980
00:50:03,025 --> 00:50:05,211
Hey, what's the
video
standard, right?

981
00:50:05,211 --> 00:50:07,479
YouTube.
When we, I was in the IAB


982
00:50:07,487 --> 00:50:10,607
committee, and we first started
talking, we found out that the


983
00:50:10,615 --> 00:50:12,702
video views on YouTube was three
seconds.

984
00:50:12,702 --> 00:50:16,588
So, when we started
working on
the IAB space way back then, did

985
00:50:16,588 --> 00:50:19,428
someone say,
'Hey, yeah,
YouTube was using three seconds

986
00:50:19,428 --> 00:50:22,570
to count it as a
view.
Now they're saying, 'Oh, well,

987
00:50:22,570 --> 00:50:25,440
now it's 30 seconds.
Well,
it used to be three, and

988
00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:28,802
you know, we went to a minute,
we
went back and forth on the

989
00:50:28,802 --> 00:50:32,056
IP about when we picked that
minute
number, and there was a

990
00:50:32,056 --> 00:50:35,569
lot of debate along a lot of
companies
versus AMP, which is

991
00:50:35,569 --> 00:50:39,080
very small number of companies,
and like,
so I just think they

992
00:50:39,080 --> 00:50:41,165
could have done it a little bit
different.


993
00:50:41,173 --> 00:50:45,127
I think at the end of the day
the IAB is going to hold a lot


994
00:50:45,135 --> 00:50:47,739
more weight than AMP.
Well, IAB is a big organization,

995
00:50:47,739 --> 00:50:49,623
and they
need to work with
IAB.

996
00:50:49,623 --> 00:50:52,719
IAB does not need to work with
AMP,
that's my opinion.

997
00:50:53,379 --> 00:50:55,929
Marc Ronick: Thank you, Rob.
And
by the way, in and around

998
00:50:56,079 --> 00:51:00,839
podcasting, that is Rob and LCS
podcast, and you can check it

999
00:51:00,899 --> 00:51:03,749
out at In and Around

podcasting.com We'll have

1000
00:51:03,869 --> 00:51:07,119
several links to connect with

Rob in the show notes.

1001
00:51:07,119 --> 00:51:10,427
Sid, I know you had a question,
and
then I want to wrap up

1002
00:51:10,427 --> 00:51:12,719
with a question about AI for
Rob.

1003
00:51:12,719 --> 00:51:16,484
So,
go ahead, Sid.
Sid Meadows: Yeah, thanks, Marc.

1004
00:51:16,484 --> 00:51:18,404


My issue with Apple analytics is

1005
00:51:18,471 --> 00:51:21,471
quite the opposite of what you

just described, Rob.

1006
00:51:21,471 --> 00:51:26,098
So I go into Buzzsprout, and I
see that
an episode had 100

1007
00:51:26,098 --> 00:51:29,909
downloads on Apple, and I go
into Apple, and
to look at it,

1008
00:51:29,909 --> 00:51:32,957
and I see that episode only had
60 downloads.


1009
00:51:32,965 --> 00:51:37,314
I'm just using examples, so my
experience is just the opposite.

1010
00:51:37,314 --> 00:51:39,346


Buzzsprout says I have more

1011
00:51:39,413 --> 00:51:43,412
plays on Apple than Apple's

actually saying that I have is,

1012
00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:45,920
can you identify what that issue

is?

1013
00:51:46,090 --> 00:51:48,318
Rob Walch: Well, what?
Okay, so
I'll break it down to

1014
00:51:48,318 --> 00:51:51,088
client side and server side.
Client
side stats are server

1015
00:51:51,088 --> 00:51:53,920
side stats, that's your hosting
company, they're going to tell

1016
00:51:54,010 --> 00:51:58,510
you if the episode was delivered

or to somebody, right?

1017
00:51:58,510 --> 00:52:04,289
So download does not mean a play
or
a consumption, so on your

1018
00:52:04,289 --> 00:52:06,852
any podcast hosting cup, no idea

what the consumption was.

1019
00:52:06,852 --> 00:52:11,760
We just know that this file was
delivered to said user, and

1020
00:52:11,790 --> 00:52:16,560
again, it's based on user agent
IP address, at least a minute

1021
00:52:16,680 --> 00:52:20,910
worth of data content was

delivered to that user.

1022
00:52:20,910 --> 00:52:24,118
Apple, on the other hand, client
side
is going to look at

1023
00:52:24,118 --> 00:52:26,255
consumption.
Someone hitting the play button,

1024
00:52:26,255 --> 00:52:29,558

so if episodes are being
delivered but they're never


1025
00:52:29,566 --> 00:52:32,738
being played, they're going to
be lower, or you know, they're


1026
00:52:32,746 --> 00:52:35,170
going to have a lower number
over there.

1027
00:52:35,170 --> 00:52:40,294
So it just depends
on if your
show has all subscribers that

1028
00:52:40,294 --> 00:52:41,824
just aren't
playing the
episodes.

1029
00:52:41,824 --> 00:52:46,993
Now, what's supposed to happen
is
after five episodes and 15

1030
00:52:46,993 --> 00:52:50,890
days, if there's no plays, that
it
pauses, Apple pauses the

1031
00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:54,172
downloads.
So, overall, over
time, it

1032
00:52:54,172 --> 00:52:57,970
should work out.
You have a lot of new

1033
00:52:57,970 --> 00:53:00,910
subscribers
coming in, and
they're playing once or twice,

1034
00:53:00,910 --> 00:53:04,062
and then they're
moving on,
and you know, I would look at

1035
00:53:04,062 --> 00:53:06,966
your consumption data,
look at
how far into your episodes, what

1036
00:53:06,966 --> 00:53:10,989
percentage of
those people
that hit play, how many of them

1037
00:53:10,989 --> 00:53:15,534
are consuming to
the 95% mark
of your episode, see what that

1038
00:53:15,534 --> 00:53:19,009
number is, see how
much it
drops from the five five minutes

1039
00:53:19,009 --> 00:53:23,364
in versus or 5% in 95%
in.
Marc Ronick: Okay, thank thanks,

1040
00:53:23,364 --> 00:53:25,775

Rob.
And as I said, I wanted to final

1041
00:53:25,775 --> 00:53:30,523
question, I want to get
your
stance on AI in podcasting right

1042
00:53:30,523 --> 00:53:33,332
now, because I think there
are
a couple of different camps out

1043
00:53:33,332 --> 00:53:35,300
there, and I'm curious where

you land.

1044
00:53:35,760 --> 00:53:38,849
Rob Walch: So I put AI into

three buckets: there's AI tools,

1045
00:53:38,912 --> 00:53:41,891
which help podcasters.
These are
tools that help you

1046
00:53:41,891 --> 00:53:45,354
get to bed earlier, because
they're going
to do some

1047
00:53:45,354 --> 00:53:49,582
things for you, do some cleanup,
going to take out
the arms to

1048
00:53:49,582 --> 00:53:52,285
us, Oz.
They're going to take out the

1049
00:53:52,285 --> 00:53:55,328
background
noise, they're
going to clean up the clipping.

1050
00:53:55,328 --> 00:53:59,574
So that is one of
the, you
know, one bucket for AI, and I

1051
00:53:59,574 --> 00:54:02,364
love those tools that
in
Adobe, a phonic, there's

1052
00:54:02,427 --> 00:54:06,336
Descript, a bunch of those AI

tools that are out there to help

1053
00:54:06,399 --> 00:54:10,055
you as a podcaster take your

human-generated content, your

1054
00:54:10,118 --> 00:54:13,901
HTC, and clean it, polish it,

buff it, and get it out there.

1055
00:54:13,964 --> 00:54:17,305
There's some tools that are

coming out where once you

1056
00:54:17,368 --> 00:54:21,340
publish a new episode, they will

automatically sync to your RSS

1057
00:54:21,403 --> 00:54:25,312
feed and pull out everything,

create clip for you, and publish

1058
00:54:25,375 --> 00:54:28,264
to social media for you, and

things like that.

1059
00:54:28,264 --> 00:54:31,353
Love that stuff.
That is what AI is
supposed to

1060
00:54:31,353 --> 00:54:33,810
be there.
It's supposed to be a tool,

1061
00:54:33,810 --> 00:54:35,903
right?

Then there is AI tools that

1062
00:54:35,966 --> 00:54:39,371
people are just using to

generate the content from the

1063
00:54:39,434 --> 00:54:42,327
ground up, right.
Completely
create the content,

1064
00:54:42,327 --> 00:54:44,771
create the voice.
This is AI slop.

1065
00:54:44,771 --> 00:54:47,251
This is
what I don't consider
a podcast.

1066
00:54:47,314 --> 00:54:50,983
This is stuff that's coming from

a bunch of different

1067
00:54:50,983 --> 00:54:53,052
companies.
Some of these companies


1068
00:54:53,060 --> 00:54:56,646
deliberately are popping out
1000s of shows, new, not to


1069
00:54:56,654 --> 00:54:58,952
episode.
Shows a month, and then you

1070
00:54:58,952 --> 00:55:02,129
know, 10s of 1000s of

episodes, and they're throwing

1071
00:55:02,192 --> 00:55:05,786
it out, hoping that picking

titles that will trick people

1072
00:55:05,849 --> 00:55:09,253
into trying to consume the

content, thinking it's, you

1073
00:55:09,316 --> 00:55:13,036
know, something to do with

Kelsey Brothers or Taylor Swift,

1074
00:55:13,099 --> 00:55:16,882
or whatever it is, sometimes

even picking artwork and titles

1075
00:55:16,945 --> 00:55:20,853
that are similar to other shows
that are out there, that those

1076
00:55:20,916 --> 00:55:23,895
to me are the shoplifters of the

podcast world.

1077
00:55:23,895 --> 00:55:27,641
They are coming in and they are
grabbing
downloads from and

1078
00:55:27,641 --> 00:55:31,343
from advertisers that are
causing the
ROIs to go down

1079
00:55:31,343 --> 00:55:34,334
because they're not real
audiences, and it just,


1080
00:55:34,342 --> 00:55:37,512
they're making money, but
they're hurting every podcaster.

1081
00:55:37,512 --> 00:55:39,577


Those people I don't like,

1082
00:55:39,640 --> 00:55:41,419
right?
That's the AI slop.

1083
00:55:41,419 --> 00:55:44,942
And
then there's the between,
like, is it I or not?

1084
00:55:44,942 --> 00:55:48,410
Like, someone
might get up a
script with on their own, but

1085
00:55:48,410 --> 00:55:51,114
then use script
voice to
create the podcast.

1086
00:55:51,177 --> 00:55:54,771
There are some legitimate

reasons for that that are good,

1087
00:55:54,834 --> 00:55:57,020
like sometimes someone loses

their voice.

1088
00:55:57,020 --> 00:56:01,148
I've got a podcaster I knew who
lost his
voice for a week, but

1089
00:56:01,148 --> 00:56:04,360
he did a daily podcast.
He had
advertisers, and he

1090
00:56:04,360 --> 00:56:08,367
said at the beginning, 'Hey,
this is AI
Brian, and he let

1091
00:56:08,367 --> 00:56:12,154
people know that he was using AI
to generate
his voice, and I

1092
00:56:12,154 --> 00:56:16,252
think if you are using AI tools
to generate
your voice, you

1093
00:56:16,252 --> 00:56:19,475
should indicate that good
audience will know the
AI

1094
00:56:19,475 --> 00:56:21,554
never pings your emotions
exactly right.

1095
00:56:21,554 --> 00:56:25,758
It might get the
sound of your
voice, but it doesn't get of

1096
00:56:25,758 --> 00:56:28,698
your being, so to
speak,
without getting metaphysical.

1097
00:56:28,698 --> 00:56:33,092
And then,
conversely, there
are some people that use the AI

1098
00:56:33,092 --> 00:56:36,232
tools to
generate script, and
then they just read it.

1099
00:56:36,232 --> 00:56:38,359
Human read, is
that a slop or
not?

1100
00:56:38,359 --> 00:56:42,569
I tell you what, the content is
not going
to be all that good.

1101
00:56:42,569 --> 00:56:46,298
You're probably not going to get
a good
audience, but you use

1102
00:56:46,298 --> 00:56:49,723
those AI tools again.
I go back to that
first group.

1103
00:56:49,723 --> 00:56:53,529
If you're using the AI tools to
give you some ideas
on what to

1104
00:56:53,529 --> 00:56:57,414
do for a show, and to do some
work, like background
work,

1105
00:56:57,414 --> 00:57:00,812
you're going to interview
somebody, it's easier to say to

1106
00:57:00,812 --> 00:57:04,529
AI, "Hey, pull me up five
questions on this person and


1107
00:57:04,537 --> 00:57:08,622
look at their background, give
me some, give me five or 10


1108
00:57:08,630 --> 00:57:11,722
questions, ask this person.
You know, David Letterman sat

1109
00:57:11,722 --> 00:57:13,954
there
with the blue cards,
right?

1110
00:57:14,017 --> 00:57:17,169
Yeah, his staff put the

questions on the cards, he

1111
00:57:17,232 --> 00:57:19,848
didn't do the research, his

staff did that.

1112
00:57:19,848 --> 00:57:23,774
So, if you're using AI to create
those blue
cards for you,

1113
00:57:23,774 --> 00:57:26,620
you're still the personality
that's reading those


1114
00:57:26,628 --> 00:57:31,418
questions, asking them, and it's
not the first question, it's the

1115
00:57:31,418 --> 00:57:33,056

follow-up question that
matters.

1116
00:57:33,119 --> 00:57:36,461
And the AI ain't going to be

there to help you on the

1117
00:57:36,524 --> 00:57:37,607
follow-up.
Exactly, exactly.

1118
00:57:37,607 --> 00:57:40,134
So,
that's where how I split
AI.

1119
00:57:40,134 --> 00:57:43,081
I think it's great for tools to
help podcasters.

1120
00:57:43,081 --> 00:57:47,110
I think it is horrible for the
AI slop, where
it's 100%

1121
00:57:47,110 --> 00:57:50,206
generated, and it just, they
just burn and churn.


1122
00:57:50,214 --> 00:57:54,652
Now, there are some places where
you could use AI slop that are


1123
00:57:54,660 --> 00:57:57,675
legitimate, and that's where
you're creating a weather


1124
00:57:57,683 --> 00:58:01,205
podcast for Sydney, Ohio.
Really, who's going to create


1125
00:58:01,213 --> 00:58:03,499
Sydney, Ohio, or Hays, Kansas
podcasts.

1126
00:58:03,499 --> 00:58:06,888
So, for that
perspective, you
may get customized weather

1127
00:58:06,888 --> 00:58:11,215
podcasts that
show up in the
morning that you can listen to

1128
00:58:11,215 --> 00:58:13,141
for your small
little niche
area.

1129
00:58:13,141 --> 00:58:16,941
No human would ever take the
time to
cover that market, so

1130
00:58:16,941 --> 00:58:20,718
that there's some advantages
there,
but when it's a quote

1131
00:58:20,718 --> 00:58:24,461
unquote podcast covering a tech
topic or
covering a political

1132
00:58:24,461 --> 00:58:27,773
topic, and it's just all pure AI
created
flop.

1133
00:58:27,773 --> 00:58:31,120
Ultimately, it's just hurting
the industry in my opinion.

1134
00:58:31,220 --> 00:58:34,218
Marc Ronick: I agree, Rob.
This
was exactly the kind of

1135
00:58:34,218 --> 00:58:37,652
clarity that I think indie
podcasters
need right now.

1136
00:58:37,652 --> 00:58:40,900
Things like growth and
monetization, AI and
video, it

1137
00:58:40,900 --> 00:58:44,780
can all really feel
overwhelming, but the real


1138
00:58:44,788 --> 00:58:48,300
question is, what actually helps
you create a better show?

1139
00:58:48,300 --> 00:58:51,574
What
helps you serve your
audience and build something

1140
00:58:51,574 --> 00:58:54,520
sustainable?

And you really hit on a lot of

1141
00:58:54,550 --> 00:58:56,644
this today in a little over an

hour.

1142
00:58:56,644 --> 00:59:00,230
So, thank you so much for
joining us, for your insights,


1143
00:59:00,238 --> 00:59:02,814
for your time today.
Really appreciate you.

1144
00:59:02,814 --> 00:59:05,453
Thank you,
everyone, for
having me on the show.

1145
00:59:05,453 --> 00:59:07,292
I really appreciate it.

Yeah, thank you.

1146
00:59:07,292 --> 00:59:10,470
And we are back tomorrow, seven
8am Eastern
Time.

1147
00:59:10,470 --> 00:59:13,950
We are covering all the news
around the world of


1148
00:59:13,958 --> 00:59:17,358
podcasting, so come join us,
hear our thoughts and opinions


1149
00:59:17,366 --> 00:59:20,598
on some of these stories, and
let's talk about them.

1150
00:59:20,598 --> 00:59:24,320
So, until
then.
Make it a great day, everybody.

1151
00:59:24,320 --> 00:59:24,980
Take care.